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  • Trump or Sanders who is the truest underdog?

    Trump or Sanders who is the truest underdog?

    A very recent post by jeffdoorgunnr on the ‘This is shameful’ thread-starter has spruiked my interest and taken my fancy.

    Everybody from the biggest corporations to the North Korean leadership to the American right to Daffy Duck and Marcel Proust always say they support the underdog (well maybe not Proust he hated everything that walked and talked on two legs, but you know what I mean).

    In fact is it not that ‘supporting the underdog’ is a rather overused and overwrought cliché?

    (Remember on the WWII forum when I asked ‘What were WWII’s overused and overwrought clichés? - some good discussions on that thread if I do say so myself, which in fact I just did)

    However we now see the phenomenon of two quite strong ‘underdog’ contenders from competing parties vying for their party's presidential candidature.

    I believe (and ergo it follows that I am right) that both are in their own way underdogs.
    This amuses me.

    Trump is big money and has cash to burn but has the awesome might of the ‘liberal establishment’, mainstream media, intelligentsia, PC lobby and ‘usual suspects’ minority groups arraigned against him.

    Sanders has no money but the support of plenty of ‘ordinary folks who think some things in America are just wrong’. However he has the burden, in US terms at least, of being an unabashed and self-avowed social democrat (and no a democratic socialist party is not a contradiction in terms - just the Swedes, Danes, Australians etc).
    The forces arraigned against him must be legion.

    Anyway enough of prologue, I’m interested in which candidate posters view as a genuine underdog and why.

    lodestar was neither liked nor trusted. Not by those who raised him, those he grew up with and went to school with, those he worked with and associated with as an adult, nor those who know him now.
    One woman told him she felt uneasy around him because: 'Your eyes are the colour of dirty coins.'


    Regards lodestar

  • #2
    Originally posted by lodestar View Post
    Trump or Sanders who is the truest underdog?

    A very recent post by jeffdoorgunnr on the ‘This is shameful’ thread-starter has spruiked my interest and taken my fancy.

    Everybody from the biggest corporations to the North Korean leadership to the American right to Daffy Duck and Marcel Proust always say they support the underdog (well maybe not Proust he hated everything that walked and talked on two legs, but you know what I mean).

    In fact is it not that ‘supporting the underdog’ is a rather overused and overwrought cliché?

    (Remember on the WWII forum when I asked ‘What were WWII’s overused and overwrought clichés? - some good discussions on that thread if I do say so myself, which in fact I just did)

    However we now see the phenomenon of two quite strong ‘underdog’ contenders from competing parties vying for their party's presidential candidature.

    I believe (and ergo it follows that I am right) that both are in their own way underdogs.
    This amuses me.

    Trump is big money and has cash to burn but has the awesome might of the ‘liberal establishment’, mainstream media, intelligentsia, PC lobby and ‘usual suspects’ minority groups arraigned against him.

    Sanders has no money but the support of plenty of ‘ordinary folks who think some things in America are just wrong’. However he has the burden, in US terms at least, of being an unabashed and self-avowed social democrat (and no a democratic socialist party is not a contradiction in terms - just the Swedes, Danes, Australians etc).
    The forces arraigned against him must be legion.

    Anyway enough of prologue, I’m interested in which candidate posters view as a genuine underdog and why.

    lodestar was neither liked nor trusted. Not by those who raised him, those he grew up with and went to school with, those he worked with and associated with as an adult, nor those who know him now.
    One woman told him she felt uneasy around him because: 'Your eyes are the colour of dirty coins.'


    Regards lodestar
    Did you say Sanders? Who is that?

    In a few months he will go back to being almost complete irrelevant unless Clinton does something really stupid. So no he is not the underdog he is the dog without a race.
    We hunt the hunters

    Comment


    • #3
      Lodestar...master of the irrelevant.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • #4
        Underdogs in US political culture

        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Lodestar...master of the irrelevant.
        Look Jim Bridger maybe I'm dumb.
        .......... long pause while the forum's resident wits come up with such brilliant retorts as 'no 'maybe' about it!) .........................but......................
        Here in Australia the press, radio, TV and online news media all regularly refer to Sanders and Trump as 'outsiders', 'underdogs', 'mavericks', 'spoilers' etc.

        Given this impression, WHY THE HECK IS THE QUESTION IRRELEVANT
        ??

        Being often seen overseas as the land of winner take all, top-dog, maintaining the status quo at all costs and just plain old unease with non-conformity it might be uncomfortable for some Americans perhaps?

        An unfair stereotyping of the US mindset perhaps - well yes it probably is and I've asked about this several times on the forum over the years (see my 'Do Americans feel as though the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t?' thread -starter on the ME sub forum for example) .

        I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who genuinely admire underdogs even if they have no real chance of winning and (dare I say it) even if the underdogs politics are not theirs.

        I've said before I like both candidates, even though they are completely different in 'style', approach, policies and background.

        Election year - underdogs doing well questions about underdogs in the USA what's irrelevant about that??

        Regards lodestar

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by lodestar View Post
          Look Jim Bridger maybe I'm dumb.
          .......... long pause while the forum's resident wits come up with such brilliant retorts as 'no 'maybe' about it!) .........................but......................
          Here in Australia the press, radio, TV and online news media all regularly refer to Sanders and Trump as 'outsiders', 'underdogs', 'mavericks', 'spoilers' etc.

          Given this impression, WHY THE HECK IS THE QUESTION IRRELEVANT
          ??

          Being often seen overseas as the land of winner take all, top-dog, maintaining the status quo at all costs and just plain old unease with non-conformity it might be uncomfortable for some Americans perhaps?

          An unfair stereotyping of the US mindset perhaps - well yes it probably is and I've asked about this several times on the forum over the years (see my 'Do Americans feel as though the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t?' thread -starter on the ME sub forum for example) .

          I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who genuinely admire underdogs even if they have no real chance of winning and (dare I say it) even if the underdogs politics are not theirs.

          I've said before I like both candidates, even though they are completely different in 'style', approach, policies and background.

          Election year - underdogs doing well questions about underdogs in the USA what's irrelevant about that??

          Regards lodestar
          I just can't see a billionaire and a professional politician as underdogs. They may not be mainstream but they certainly are not Rockies. An underdog to Americans is someone who claws their way up from the bottom. A second team pick is just a second team, pick someone to hold the towel so to speak but not someone you have empathy for.

          Does that help?
          We hunt the hunters

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
            I just can't see a billionaire and a professional politician as underdogs. They may not be mainstream but they certainly are not Rockies. An underdog to Americans is someone who claws their way up from the bottom. A second team pick is just a second team, pick someone to hold the towel so to speak but not someone you have empathy for.

            Does that help?
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Ruettiger

            One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions - Admiral Grace Hopper

            "The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity."
            Wu Cheng'en Monkey

            Comment


            • #7

              Yes I know that story. An underdog has to have an antagonist however. This has more to do with personal triumph than rising to the top.
              We hunt the hunters

              Comment


              • #8
                I'll make it simple.

                One side has ALOT of guns and a short tempered leader.

                What happens if he loses?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Trump and Sanders as towel-holders???

                  Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                  I just can't see a billionaire and a professional politician as underdogs. They may not be mainstream but they certainly are not Rockies. An underdog to Americans is someone who claws their way up from the bottom. A second team pick is just a second team, pick someone to hold the towel so to speak but not someone you have empathy for.

                  Does that help?
                  No not really.
                  Can't see Trump or Sanders as second-team or towel-holders at all.

                  I view true underdogs as those battling directly against the odds in the contest they are engaged in. Be it warfare, politics, sport, business, education, 'trying to fit in', art/culture, international relations, trade and industry, entertainment or social advancement.

                  so in regards to the two candidates:

                  . They are directly competing are they not?

                  . They are essentially running against the conventional tide are they not?

                  . Most Americans would not view them as someone they would be happy to have as president do they not?

                  My question is who is the truest underdog - ie who faces the hardest challenge and who is battling the greatest odds.

                  Regards lodestar

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
                    I'll make it simple.

                    One side has ALOT of guns and a short tempered leader.

                    What happens if he loses?
                    Nothing.
                    Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                      Nothing.
                      Does nothing to ease fears.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The biggest underdog?
                        The US voters!
                        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                          The biggest underdog?
                          The US voters!
                          Agreed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                            Yes I know that story. An underdog has to have an antagonist however. This has more to do with personal triumph than rising to the top.
                            True, Rudy was a true underdog rather than someone who claims being the underdog in order to gain some leverage.
                            One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions - Admiral Grace Hopper

                            "The eunuch should not take pride in his chastity."
                            Wu Cheng'en Monkey

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Trump.
                              FDR and Carter who admired the far left like Sanders does have been elected no one who admired the Axis powers and are as far right like Trump is have been elected President.
                              It's all mute Clinton will win.

                              Comment

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