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  • #16
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    I don't think many people condone these groups.

    The point I think most of us were trying to make is that when the proper authorities do not enforce the law people feel they are morally justified in stepping in and taking action on their own. The debate over the appropriateness of the law becomes irrelevant if the law is not being enforced because the authorities have already surrendered their moral authority. The people that oppose the law on moral grounds can opt for civil disobedience and defy the law but if the authorities do not take action against those engaged in civil disobedience they once again surrender their moral authority. If the authorities simply ignore the law then they undermine the foundation of civil conduct.

    Illegal immigration is illegal by definition and only a very small part of it is legitimate asylum seeking. If there are crimes without punishment the very foundation of contracts between moral agents is undermined. By not punishing the illegals and the people that support them you strip away there agency by saying they could not have acted in any other way because they are too stupid to understand the law or not capable of obeying the law due to some other deficiency. If it is true that the law is immoral then the incarceration of legal citizens will shortly see it repealed. A world without punishment is a world without social contracts.

    The moral authority of the law enforcement branch of government is not derived from interpreting or by selective administering the law but by uniform enforcement of all laws.

    When you create a special class of people for whom the law does not apply it in effect dehumanizes them by placing them in a class in which normal human contracts do not apply. You could argue that this principle should apply to both privileged and underprivileged groups as well and in effect it does. Even in the case of the privileged if they are not held to the same legal standard as average citizens the majority will often find it morally acceptable to ignore social convention and inflict punishment that the normal authorities refused to apply.

    Law and order is not some abstraction that you can take or leave depending on your whim but is a necessary part of any civilization. Those that advocate ignoring the law are essentially advocating the destruction of civilization and can expect the kind of uncivilized acts reported in the original post.

    You only need to look at the wide spread criminality during prohibition to see that the consequences of irregular law enforcement are not directly linked to whether the law is moral or not. Today widespread drug use has a similar corrupting influence as people unwilling to suffer the consequences of civil disobedience simply opt to ignore the law.

    Everyone is certainly free to advocate changes to the law and that is the purpose of free speech. What we have now is an atmosphere in which people try to silence debate by claiming the moral authority that have already destroyed by advocation unequal enforcement.
    Advocating changes to the law by prejudicial raids with a "kill em all and let God sort em out" because the "only a very small part of it is legitimate asylum seeking" thinking leads to many more 9 year old dead kids rather than a change to the law.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
      Here is their website. http://baesic.net/minutemanproject/

      There was a splinter group that tried a takeover and maybe that was where that came from. Show us where that is said please. Point is the open borders people have smeared them repeatedly. I suspect that this book that you cited is one of these. Think about it, if it was true don't you think bobo would've went after them? I've been to a meeting and saw none of that.

      The Wiki has no references to such a incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuteman_Project

      Now if you know of my rants here you'd know that I despise racists. So show me where that is claimed and I'll never speak in a positive fashion again. But again I think its a smear job...
      Keep in mind that the web site could have been scrubbed since the book's publishing. With that being said, the are on the radar screen of the ACLU and of the Southern Poverty Law Center. There are people that dismiss the ACLU as an uber-liberal organization, which makes no sense as they also defended Fred Phelps for example.

      "Nothing good can come from people taking the law into their own hands," said ACLU of New Mexico Executive Director Peter Simonson. "The situation only gets worse when they start carrying firearms and when their motivations are based on racial difference. By passively monitoring the vigilantes, we hope to dissuade them from falsely arresting people who, because of their skin color, are assumed to be undocumented immigrants. The documentary illustrates the successes and experiences of such a project in Arizona."
      https://www.aclu.org/news/minutemen-...igilante-group

      Minuteman Project leaders say their volunteers are 'white Martin Luther Kings,' but their anti-immigration campaign in marked by weaponry, military maneuvers and racist talk.
      https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...arizona-border
      Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

      Initiated Chief Petty Officer
      Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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      • #18
        Well their claims are different than my experience. Sure there's wackos in every segment of our society, I think that the open borders people are lumping the rational with the wackos, to discredit the movement...

        Also the ACLU and the SPLC aren't the most reliable of sources...
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
          Well their claims are different than my experience. Sure there's wackos in every segment of our society, I think that the open borders people are lumping the rational with the wackos, to discredit the movement...

          Also the ACLU and the SPLC aren't the most reliable of sources...
          Would you believe an Anti Defamation League source?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
            Would you believe an Anti Defamation League source?
            The thing is all of the above are proponents of the open border movement. I believe in immigration. Just legally, no one has the right to violate our border. Just look at whats happening in Europe... How many illegals do we have residing in country now? Do you want to just continue to ignore the problem?

            This is a classic attack pattern of the left, 'Your a racist'. It's just gotten old as far as I'm concerned... Find verifiable non-biased reports and I will believe it. But like I said if flies against my experiences...

            Just because a bunch of lefties (or righties) say something over and over doesn't make it factual...
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              The thing is all of the above are proponents of the open border movement. I believe in immigration. Just legally, no one has the right to violate our border. Just look at whats happening in Europe... How many illegals do we have residing in country now? Do you want to just continue to ignore the problem?

              This is a classic attack pattern of the left, 'Your a racist'. It's just gotten old as far as I'm concerned... Find verifiable non-biased reports and I will believe it. But like I said if flies against my experiences...

              Just because a bunch of lefties (or righties) say something over and over doesn't make it factual...
              So EVERY hate group tracking is to be ignored.

              ACLU is led by over zealous lawyers, SPLC by a significant population, and ADL is Jewish.

              Which sources do you trust then?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
                So EVERY hate group tracking is to be ignored.

                ACLU is led by over zealous lawyers, SPLC by a significant population, and ADL is Jewish.

                Which sources do you trust then?
                FBI Domestic Terrorism: Focus on Militia Extremism

                https://www.fbi.gov/.../militia_092211


                Federal Bureau of Investigation


                Sep 22, 2011 - The latest story in our series on domestic terror threats looks at militia extremists. ... Report Threats AZ Index Site Map. Search.Missing: minuteman



                Note the missing on the search.
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                  The thing is all of the above are proponents of the open border movement. I believe in immigration. Just legally, no one has the right to violate our border. Just look at whats happening in Europe... How many illegals do we have residing in country now? Do you want to just continue to ignore the problem?

                  This is a classic attack pattern of the left, 'Your a racist'. It's just gotten old as far as I'm concerned... Find verifiable non-biased reports and I will believe it. But like I said if flies against my experiences...

                  Just because a bunch of lefties (or righties) say something over and over doesn't make it factual...
                  Jim Gilchrist himself has stated publicly that his movement attracted people with "sinister intentions":
                  In a June 2008 interview with the OC Register, Jim Gilchrist stated, "Am I happy at the outcome of this whole movement? I am very, very sad, very disappointed". He also added, "There's all kinds of organizations that have spawned from the Minuteman Project and I have to say, some of the people who have gotten into this movement have sinister intentions. ...I have found, after four years in this movement...I very well may have been fighting for people with less character and less integrity than the 'open border fanatics' I have been fighting against", Gilchrist concluded. "And that is a phenomenal indictment of something I have created."
                  Like the Tea Party movement it started off with noble intentions, in this case to secure our borders but was quickly hijacked by White nationalist bigots and other assorted wackos who just hate Hispanic people irrespective of their legal status. Likewise the Tea Party started off in 2006/2007as a largely libertarian movement to advocate for responsible government spending and was later hijacked by social conservatives, White nationalist bigots, and anti-government loons around the time Obama was elected president in 2008.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
                    I wouldn't like prejudicial house raids by a bunch of guys "on a hunch."

                    I'm sure the kid that died in the last raid wasn't a drug dealer.
                    Are you familiar with the evidence before the raid?

                    The girl died because her father put her in dangerous environment. Hasn't anyone told you that drugs are harmful to your health? Apparently, her father didn't care much for her safety.
                    My worst jump story:
                    My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                    As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                    No lie.

                    ~
                    "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                    -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ChrisF1987 View Post
                      Jim Gilchrist himself has stated publicly that his movement attracted people with "sinister intentions":
                      Sure, but they were booted and went to one of the splinter parties when they voiced their bigoted opinions.

                      Like I said before I personally checked it out (albeit when it was just starting) and didn't observe anything but citizens who wanted to hinder the flow of illegals.

                      Btw their actions at that time was to notify border patrol of the locations of illegal incursions. Not to shoot it out with the illegals or detain them...
                      Credo quia absurdum.


                      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
                        Advocating changes to the law by prejudicial raids with a "kill em all and let God sort em out" because the "only a very small part of it is legitimate asylum seeking" thinking leads to many more 9 year old dead kids rather than a change to the law.
                        The point is that advocating looking the other way at illegal immigration creates a lawless environment. I don't think anyone wants armed vigilantes but that is what you get when laws are not enforced. The real victims of our failure to enforce our border are most often the illegals themselves.

                        I have no problem with people advocating for open migration but until the law is changed they should refrain from advocating illegal behavior.

                        The issue of asylum seeking is relevant because it involves how many 9 year olds die because illegals have taken the place of legitimate asylum seekers. People across party lines would be much more open to accepting legitimate immigrants if there was no existing immigration problem.

                        Drugs are part of the illegal immigration issue but how many 9 year olds are killed in our inner cities where immigration does not play a part. Where there are illegal drugs there is violence. Suggesting that laws be uniformly enforced would seem to play little part in the death of the 9 year old in question. He could just as easily been killed by rival gangs if or if he had not stayed in Mexico because drug traffic across the border is killing many Mexicans everyday.
                        We hunt the hunters

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                        • #27
                          Also some of them die just trying to cross the desert and the coyotes will often rape and or rob the people trying to get into here. Sometimes they are kidnapped and held for either slavery or ransom.

                          I'd like to be rid of the anchor baby law, followed by a work permit visa. I look at it as though someone starts camping in my yard w/o permission and when I try to get the sheriff to remove them he refuses because he doesn't want to...
                          Credo quia absurdum.


                          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
                            How many bodies are in a desert?

                            Answer:

                            As many as you can dig up.
                            You'll have to do better than that.

                            It's not ultra right wingers burying those bodies, it's other immigrants. Preying on their own.

                            Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
                            ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                            BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                            BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                              I do not think so, this was a well known extremist group with a clearly bigoted ideology; their web site included references to "subhuman Mexicans."

                              Cited from "Right-Wing Resurgence: How a Domestic Terrorist Threat is Being Ignored" by Daryl Johnson. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
                              Yeah, that source doesn't sound biased at all.

                              Got a link showing where specifically this occurs?

                              Because when anti Minutemen whining occurred, it was by leftists who don't understand what a vigilante is. (Hint, it's not someone who sees a crime and then calls the police which is what they generally did.) With all the anti conservative nonsense leveled against them I'm going to need more than your gentleman's word that they are as dastardly as you claim.
                              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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                              • #30
                                I don't even care who the Feds call "Domestic Terrorists" anymore. When the put that tag on a couple of guys who's backfire got out of control, the entire concept lost meaning for me.

                                Ah, good old Arizona, home of one the the biggest RINOs of them all-


                                "Why is the Rum gone?"

                                -Captain Jack

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