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Judge: Apple must help US hack San Bernardino killer's phone

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  • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
    Oh yeah: he was a social worker or something like that. So if the agency in question -- County Social Services or whatever they call it there -- gives their permission, then what's the hold-up? Apple can crack that thing open right quick.

    Still doesn't justify DoJ's request for code though.

    [Edited to add:] if the county owns the phone, don't they have either the code to crack it, or the authorization for Apple to crack it for them?
    No aApple can not crack the key for the data. Feds do not want them to crack the key, even if they could.
    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
    “To talk of many things:
    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
    Of cabbages—and kings—
    And why the sea is boiling hot—
    And whether pigs have wings.”
    ― Lewis Carroll

    Comment


    • I think you guys did not read this carefully. People are losing there phones because the encryption is that messed up. If you drop this phone and damage the home button Apple is telling people it's a paper weight. When they take it to a store to have the security bypassed Apple cannot seem to do it.
      Last edited by wolfhnd; 19 Feb 16, 03:38.
      We hunt the hunters

      Comment


      • I think we're having a major disconnect as to what's being asked for. Principally I think that Apple is spreading a lot of misinformation, plus the uninformed or misinformed spreading their own information. Facebook is blowing up with ridiculous things, including something from McAfee as well.

        Situation: Law Enforcement (in this case the FBI) needs to get into the data stored in a phone. They have obtained a valid warrant towards the owner in possession of the phone (deceased) and have the cooperation of the current possessor of the phone (San Bernadino County).

        Problem: After 10 unsuccessful tries to access the phone, said phone may (likely will) wipe all data.

        Solution: Disable the '10 tries and you're screwed' feature on this phone. At that point the FBI will take responsibility for decrypting the phone (done by hacking the password).

        Problem No2: Apple refuses to disable the feature. Says 'security reasons'.

        Solution: Get a court order making Apple disable feature.

        Problem No3: Apple refuses court order. Apple starts propoganda campaign that what is being requested is a 'back door' into iOS that would destroy ALL security. Tech Giant Apple plays up its 1990s small company image as standing against 'Big Brother'.

        Apple's Proposal: We'll take the phone, access it, dump the data, and give it to you.

        Problemssssss: 1) If Apple takes the phone, the chain of custody is broken. Any evidence obtained off that phone that could be used to prosecute collaborators or maybe contacts that are other terrorists is now worthless (unless Big Brother is going to go full Bond and just .00X them out). 2) There's no way of knowing if Apple gives over the whole of the data.

        Solutions: 1) Continue to fight Apple and hope they'll eventually cave. 2) Give Up. 3) Apple can unlock the phone under the very watchful eyes of video and audio recording in an FBI Crime Lab, while also being monitored by however many FBI techs that the FBI wants to use. And 4) (Tac's Favorite), Bring it before the court that if Apple is beyond the jurisdiction of the court, then the court is not within its jurisdiction to rule on any lawsuit for which Apple is a Plaintiff.....vacate all judgements against anyone who has ever been sued by Apple and dismiss all outstanding lawsuits since they're not within the court's jurisdiction.

        I keep seeing this narrative about how Apple is 'doing it the right way'. In reality they're following every possible procedure, true, but they are literally doing everything within their power to obstruct law enforcement at every turn, and have been doing so for quite some time. It's literally at the point where if I get ahold of an Iphone in the possession of (Drug Dealer, Gang Leader, Child Rapist, Mass Murderer, Child Porn Distributor, etc.) I'd just say "Well geez, I hope he doesn't have any evidence on that thing" because Apple has categorically refused to honor any and all search warrants for so long it's just a matter of course.

        This is about a company which has been an absolute dick for so long, that it's taken an ISIS inspired Mass Murder Terrorist Attack to create circumstances so exigent that a Law Enforcement Agency (in this case the FBI) thinks they've finally got the Golden BB which will force Apple to start playing ball.

        And in conclusion, let me be very clear about what is being demanded (not requested....a letter is a request, a court order is a Demand):

        That Apple physically disable the auto-wiping feature on a phone which they can physically contact, for the purpose of allowing a duly Sworn Law Enforcement Officer or designee (evidence tech) to use existing equipment to decrypt and access the data stored within. The FBI has not demanded that Apple rewrite iOS. They've not demanded a 'back door into all phones'. They've demanded quite literally what every search warrant that Apple has ignored for so long has demanded.....that Apple disable a specific security feature on a specific phone for a specific purpose.

        If the FBI wanted to access all Iphones wirelessly, wouldn't it be simple to just do it when they're in use by their users, and thus they've already decrypted themselves? Their argument is literally moot, unless Apple is arguing that mass phone confiscations and dumps are going to happen, something which has already been ruled illegal.

        To put it in Layman's terms, Apple is standing in front of a Storage Unit that doesn't even belong to it, but they built it. The Cops aren't asking them to open it. They aren't even asking them to remove the lock. They just want Apple to put the pin back in the grenade so that when they force the lock they don't blow the unit up.
        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
          No aApple can not crack the key for the data. Feds do not want them to crack the key, even if they could.
          You're saying that not only is Apple unable to crack it (which I rather doubt) but also that the DoJ does not want Apple to crack it. Then what DoJ really wants is Apple's code. The way I read the Fourth Amendment, the Feds can't have it.
          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

          Comment


          • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
            You're saying that not only is Apple unable to crack it (which I rather doubt) but also that the DoJ does not want Apple to crack it. Then what DoJ really wants is Apple's code. The way I read the Fourth Amendment, the Feds can't have it.
            No, they want Apple to disable certain security features of the OS. The 10 attempts limit on trying a password and the time limit between each attempt at entering a password. To do this they'd load a modified iOS onto the phone and then turn it back over to the FBI. The FBI would then brute force attack the phone's password.
            “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
            “To talk of many things:
            Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
            Of cabbages—and kings—
            And why the sea is boiling hot—
            And whether pigs have wings.”
            ― Lewis Carroll

            Comment


            • About the best technical description of the task ordered by the court.

              http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/...i-court-order/

              As a result, the FBI has made a request for technical assistance through a court order to Apple. As one might guess, their requests target each one of the above pain points. In their request, they have asked for the following:
              [Apple] will bypass or disable the auto-erase function whether or not it has been enabled;
              [Apple] will enable the FBI to submit passcodes to the SUBJECT DEVICE for testing electronically via the physical device port, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, or other protocol available on the SUBJECT DEVICE; and
              [Apple] will ensure that when the FBI submits passcodes to the SUBJECT DEVICE, software running on the device will not purposefully introduce any additional delay between passcode attempts beyond what is incurred by Apple hardware.
              “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
              “To talk of many things:
              Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
              Of cabbages—and kings—
              And why the sea is boiling hot—
              And whether pigs have wings.”
              ― Lewis Carroll

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                No, they want Apple to disable certain security features of the OS. The 10 attempts limit on trying a password and the time limit between each attempt at entering a password. To do this they'd load a modified iOS onto the phone and then turn it back over to the FBI. The FBI would then brute force attack the phone's password.
                Ironic twist, if Apple hadn't gone the "major a$$hole" route with it, they could have probably worked out a deal with Law Enforcement, and set a precedent which would have been beneficial to their company (and others) in the long run.

                By which I mean a signed agreement where Apple agrees to:

                Send a technician to a designated location (or have an LEO take the phone to a designated Apple location).

                Apple performs an iOS change disabling the security feature on specified phone.

                Apple has permission to observe further hacking activities done for the purpose of decrypting specified phone.

                The FBI agrees to:

                Not duplicate the core software of the specified phone as it is the proprietary intellectual property of Apple.

                Maintain the phone in secure evidence without access by any parties and a secure and well documented chain of custody.

                Destroy the phone at the conclusion of the proceeding in question and provide the destroyed phone to Apple.

                Law Enforcement (which is different than Intelligence Agencies like the NSA) would be perfectly content with Apple disarming the bomb on the porch and then watching us beat down the door, only to turn the house over to them once we're done poking around and stuff. "Sure we'll help you unlock this specific phone, but it's very proprietary software and we're not going to tell you how we disabled that security feature, or let you look and see for yourself, we'll just do that bit for you and then kick back while you do the rest of it yourself."
                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                Comment


                • It appears the terrorist have discovered a legal as well as technical flaw and they have been exploiting it not just here but abroad.

                  "National Security Agency director Michael Rogers was quoted in a Yahoo News report Wednesday as confirming speculation about the use of encryption in the November massacre on the streets of Paris by supporters of the Islamic State organization that killed 130.

                  Rogers told Yahoo that "some of the communications" of the Paris attackers "were encrypted," preventing intelligence officials from picking up the trail.

                  As a result, he was quoted as saying, "we did not generate the insights ahead of time. Clearly, had we known, Paris would not have happened."

                  Rogers, who made the comments last week, has joined US law enforcement officials in warning about the dangers of new encrypted devices that make it difficult if not impossible to tap, even with a warrant.

                  The report comes as Apple has challenged a US court order to provide assistance to the FBI to crack an iPhone used in attacks in San Bernardino, California, opening a new front in the encryption debate.

                  http://www.thelocal.fr/20160218/encr...cape-detection
                  Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                  Comment


                  • I don't buy the chain of custody argument.

                    1) Deputize the Apple tech team that works on the phone and make them sign non-disclosure agreements and such.
                    2) Lot of FBI employees sit on their fat asses all day long. Let them sit their on fat asses wherever the gosh darn phone is.
                    3) Phone and retrieve data leaves with said FBI fat asses and the FBI can then do what they will with phone and data.
                    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                    Prayers.

                    BoRG

                    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

                    Comment


                    • So, we are basically back to what I said back on page 5 -


                      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                      This has to qualify and the biggest load of crap this week.
                      And that says a lot!

                      And here is why-
                      If this was one of those old B&W crime movies, a guy from the FBI would walk into Apple and go see a senior IT guy.
                      "Hey, this is the phone and here is a warrant, I need to see what's in here."
                      The IT guy gets up and agrees that this would be a great idea and these two guys sit down together at the workbench and HAVE A LOOK at what is in that phone.
                      No BS, no parade of hysteria and NO posturing and Political Kabuki Theater from coast to coast.

                      ....
                      But now we have this silly contest where BOTH sides are being uber-schmucks and working against each other ten times as hard as they are against the real enemy.

                      Or, maybe we are at the point where Americans have to look at each other as if we ARE the real enemy.
                      How brilliant.
                      "Songs of the Doomed" , as Hunter S. Thompson once put it.
                      He might as well have been an oracle.

                      Comment


                      • TacCovert4

                        I don't think people here disagree with you they just want to take this opportunity to explore some side issue. One is unreasonable and expensive requests for information by courts. Other people are interested in the privacy issue because they do not trust the government. There seems to also be some evidence that this case may expose some incompetence at Apple that they want to cover up.

                        For me personally I don't trust the government. I have been the victim of court ordered fishing expeditions. Privacy isn't much of an issue for me but I look at how peoples live have been ruined by social media and know there is something to worry about. I know that the lives of innocent whistleblowers have been ruined by the courts because a malevolent administration can abuse it's powers. I don't automatically trust law enforcement organizations but I think it is wise to respect their authority. I have been the victim of hackers on several occasions the most recent being someone filing a tax return using my name so security interest me. On the other hand I would like to be able to file class action lawsuits against agencies and corporations which means I would need to go fishing around in their information and there is no way I could afford to pay the cost. All of these issues are complex and worth discussing.
                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment


                        • If you don't have this website booked mark you should, for many reasons. Right now on it's front page there are several interesting articles on this subject.

                          https://www.lawfareblog.com/
                          “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                          “To talk of many things:
                          Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                          Of cabbages—and kings—
                          And why the sea is boiling hot—
                          And whether pigs have wings.”
                          ― Lewis Carroll

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                            If you don't have this website booked mark you should, for many reasons. Right now on it's front page there are several interesting articles on this subject.

                            https://www.lawfareblog.com/

                            Thanks
                            We hunt the hunters

                            Comment


                            • Just when I thought I didn't need any more reason to hate Apple.....
                              "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

                              Comment


                              • Anti-virus software creator John McAfee has said he will break the encryption on an iPhone that belonged to San Bernardino killer Syed Farook.
                                Mr McAfee made the offer to the FBI in an article published by Business Insider.
                                Apple has refused to comply with a court order asking it to unlock the device, dividing opinion over whether the firm should be compelled to do so.
                                Mr McAfee said he and his team would take on the task "free of charge".
                                The offer came as Mr McAfee continues his campaign as a US presidential candidate for the Libertarian Party.
                                "It will take us three weeks," he claimed in his article.
                                Security expert Graham Cluley told the BBC he was sceptical of Mr McAfee's claims.
                                "The iPhone is notoriously difficult to hack compared to other devices," he said.
                                'Dead men's tales'

                                For instance, Mr Cluley cast doubts on Mr McAfee's idea that he could use "social engineering" to work out the pass-code of Farook's locked iPhone.
                                This is a process by which hackers try to find out login credentials by tricking people into giving them away.
                                "In a nutshell, dead men tell no tales," said Mr Cluley. "Good luck to Mr McAfee trying to socially engineer a corpse into revealing its pass-code."
                                "The FBI isn't interested anyway, they want to set a precedent that there shouldn't be locks they can't break," he added.

                                In his article, Mr McAfee stated that he was keen to unlock the device because he didn't want Apple to be forced to implement a "back door" - a method by which security services could access data on encrypted devices.
                                Chief executive of Apple Tim Cook had previously said in a statement that the firm did not want to co-operate.
                                He argued that introducing a back door would make all iPhones vulnerable to hacking by criminals.
                                'I would eat shoe'

                                Mr McAfee believes that it would be possible to retrieve data from the phone by other means - though he did not give many details of how it would be done.
                                "I would eat my shoe on the Neil Cavuto [television] show if we could not break the encryption on the San Bernardino phone," he added.
                                Some, including the Australian Children's eSafety Commissioner who spoke to tech website ZDNet, have said that Apple would not necessarily have to introduce a back door, but that the firm is only being asked to provide access to a single device.


                                http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35611763
                                Credo quia absurdum.


                                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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