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Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use

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  • Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use

    Hi

    Hope this is of some interest:-

    US police have adopted new guidelines on how to shoot fewer suspects – following a fact-finding trip to Scotland.

    We revealed last month how American officers spent time at Scotland’s police colleges *learning how to deal with volatile *suspects.

    That helped the US Police *Executive Research Forum come up with a list of 30 principles to guide officers.
    Read more at http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk...CvSg68VZZfc.99

    whilst there's some video footage and more of the narrative here:-
    http://news.sky.com/story/1633328/sc...-avoid-gun-use

    Regards

    Andy H
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

  • #2
    Nonsense.

    US police forces are autonomous, and use of force is controlled by case law more than policy.

    What this is, is a periodic ploy used by agencies to have an excuse for command staff to get a free trip to Scotland, Ireland, or Britain on the taxpayer's dime under the auspices of the IACP or similar organizations.

    I've been on three such trips. We have not changed our policies in any meaningful fashion. But I had a wonderful time.
    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

    Comment


    • #3
      I wasn't aware that the Scots had any dealings with heavily armed American drug gangs.

      I imagine dealing with Scottish criminals is quite different.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well all I'll say is I saw some stop and searches done by the LAPD that I thought were bloody dangerous given the area and that they were outnumbered quite heavily. We all can learn from each other.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          I wasn't aware that the Scots had any dealings with heavily armed American drug gangs.

          I imagine dealing with Scottish criminals is quite different.
          Couldn't agree more.

          Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
          Well all I'll say is I saw some stop and searches done by the LAPD that I thought were bloody dangerous given the area and that they were outnumbered quite heavily. We all can learn from each other.
          Yes, we can learn from each other, but I can't for the life of me think of a thing that the Scots can teach our police of how to deal with armed drug gangs, gang bangers, heavily armed motorcycle gangs etc, they just don't have the experience that I am aware of.
          Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
            Well all I'll say is I saw some stop and searches done by the LAPD that I thought were bloody dangerous given the area and that they were outnumbered quite heavily. We all can learn from each other.
            We're always outnumbered.

            But we're rarely out-gunned.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              We're always outnumbered.

              But we're rarely out-gunned.
              These two could easily have been. They needed a good talking to by their superiors. Fortunately these guys weren't carrying.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
                Couldn't agree more.



                Yes, we can learn from each other, but I can't for the life of me think of a thing that the Scots can teach our police of how to deal with armed drug gangs, gang bangers, heavily armed motorcycle gangs etc, they just don't have the experience that I am aware of.
                Well it depends what they were sharing info about. I was taught some very good de-escalation techniques. I remember people who weren't so good. Things escalated quickly where it needn't have.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                  These two could easily have been. They needed a good talking to by their superiors. Fortunately these guys weren't carrying.
                  You can't call for backup just because its dangerous.

                  The fact that its dangerous is exactly why nearly all of us chose this line of work. That's why so many make it through the academy but quit after a couple years: because in the end, policing in the USA is a job for adrenaline junkies.
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    I wasn't aware that the Scots had any dealings with heavily armed American drug gangs.

                    I imagine dealing with Scottish criminals is quite different.
                    Hi MM

                    If you scroll down to page 39 of this report http://www.policeforum.org/assets/re...gtraining1.pdf
                    The UK Police are asked about:-
                    PERF asked top officials from the Greater Manchester
                    Police and Police Scotland to make presentations
                    about their experiences with use of force polices and
                    training.
                    Because far fewer residents of the UK own
                    handguns, and because there are far fewer gun
                    crimes committed in the UK, PERF asked these
                    officials to focus on issues that they have in common
                    with police in the United States, such as mentally
                    ill persons wielding knives, screwdrivers, or
                    other weapons—but not firearms
                    From further down:
                    Chief Inspector Pell (UK): I think we shot 2 or 3 people maximum in the last 10 years in Greater Manchester. To give some context, we had about 500,000 emergency calls last year and 900,000 non-emergency
                    calls. And about 1,300 of those were incidents involving firearms or other weapons.

                    Wexler: Drawing your attention to edged weapons, how many times have you used deadly force in those situations?

                    Chief Inspector Pell: Never.

                    Wexler: How many officers have died as a result of your never using deadly force?

                    Chief Inspector Pell: None.
                    The report which goes far beyond what just the UK perspective, was interesting in how various US PD's are looking at re-training and deescalation training.

                    I don't care who learns what from who as long as we learn and provide the best training possible for whatever situations LEO's may come across.

                    Regards

                    Andy H
                    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      policing in the USA is a job for adrenaline junkies.
                      Hi AJR

                      Enough said
                      Thankfully some of the adrenaline junkies in these video's are now off the streets
                      http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...deos-race.html

                      Regards

                      Andy H
                      "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                      "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                        Hi MM

                        If you scroll down to page 39 of this report http://www.policeforum.org/assets/re...gtraining1.pdf
                        The UK Police are asked about:-


                        From further down:


                        The report which goes far beyond what just the UK perspective, was interesting in how various US PD's are looking at re-training and deescalation training.

                        I don't care who learns what from who as long as we learn and provide the best training possible for whatever situations LEO's may come across.

                        Regards

                        Andy H
                        !
                        Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                          You can't call for backup just because its dangerous.

                          The fact that its dangerous is exactly why nearly all of us chose this line of work. That's why so many make it through the academy but quit after a couple years: because in the end, policing in the USA is a job for adrenaline junkies.
                          No no. That's not the point. In this case these officers can't have been using correct suspect control methods. I didn't think it dangerous because it was law enforcement. We both know that as a given. I thought it dangerous because of what they were doing.Not unless the LAPD use reckless methods like I saw and I seriously doubt that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                            The report which goes far beyond what just the UK perspective, was interesting in how various US PD's are looking at re-training and deescalation training.

                            I don't care who learns what from who as long as we learn and provide the best training possible for whatever situations LEO's may come across.

                            Regards

                            Andy H
                            And again, nonsense.

                            After my last trip to Britain we adopted a 'de-escalation' program of training.

                            De-escalation, of which I am an IAPC certified instructor, boils down to 'key phrases you put in your post-shooting report'.

                            In the end, a subject with a deadly weapon is a subject with a deadly weapon. Until they change case law responsibility, develop an efficient ranged non-lethal device, or get mental health professionals to respond after hours, its not going to change.

                            You notice we never get sent to Canada, whose shooting record is just about as good as the UKs. Or Iceland, Denmark, or Finland whose records are better.

                            That's because nobody wants to go to those places. If you go to the UK you can blow off two days of classes and zip over to Paris, play golf, see the sights.

                            Everybody signs in, attends orientation, and then 75% vanish until the flight home. On the flight home there's a lot of hung-over, travel worn chiefs & command staff reading the program handouts so as to be able to sound like they attended the classes.
                            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                              No no. That's not the point. In this case these officers can't have been using correct suspect control methods. I didn't think it dangerous because it was law enforcement. We both know that as a given. I thought it dangerous because of what they were doing.Not unless the LAPD use reckless methods like I saw and I seriously doubt that.
                              Couldn't say without seeing the video. But I do know that you guys use radically different tactics than we do.
                              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                              Comment

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