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Rural Land in the West

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  • Rural Land in the West

    This is NOT a thread about The Bundy boon-doggle.
    This thread is about the greater issues and they will be outlined below. Can we all be civil, just this once?

    This is something I regard as an important issue, and I will Report any posts that divert from the issue to the Mods so that they can be removed, no matter which side they come from.


    The issue;
    Though they are often, incorrectly called “public” lands, the “public” has no fundamental right to enter them or utilize their water and other resources. They are federal government reservations, administered and controlled by agencies that increasingly want economic, motorized and many other activities prohibited and eliminated. Imagine the feds owning half of Ohio or Pennsylvania – and gradually, systematically closing off access, taking away water and forage rights, banning economic uses.
    http://townhall.com/columnists/pauld...5265/page/full

    Territories in the West accepted statehood in the understanding that they would become States with the same legal standing as the original 13 states. This does not seem to have been the case, in practice.

    I'll ask you to please try and get past the headline and READ the article. The information presented there explains a LOT about all the contention out there, and might even make you wonder why there are not 100s of stand-offs going on all over the West.

    So, lets talk about it, if anyone cares.


    Why this is personal for me-
    As I have mentioned, I was born in New York, close enough to "the" city to see the red glow in the night sky, and grew up in various parts of that state. I left 4 days after graduating High School and never looked back.
    People seem to think that "Rednecks" are the same everywhere... I'm here to say that just ain't so.
    The biggest regrets of my life all center around the dozen years I spent living in the Southeast. Dixie is not very friendly to outsiders and the folk I met out there either didn't want to know me, or pretended they didn't know me when someone they knew was looking.
    In the West, it was very different. I encountered the most open and accepting group of people that has ever been my privilege to associate with, bar none. The reason is that the work they do is very hard on the body, difficult physically and emotionally at times, and offers little in monetary reward most of the time. They do it because they love it, and you'd have to. If you can "hack it", your in. If you can't, you won't be around very long anyway, its no place for groupies or hangers-on when a commute can involve a 50-mile drive through snow and ice in the middle of the night.,, or spending that night in an unheated trailer waiting for someone to come and get you out of there.

    The rewards are no traffic jams, nobody looking over your shoulder, nothing to feel self-concous about 24/7, and all the breathing space you could ask for. All the joys and perils that freedom and independence can offer. The rest of the world is far away, and you don't have to obsess about how its being run, or ruined.
    At least, that's how it was supposed to be.

    Now, the rest of the world isn't exactly crowding in, its a weird reversal of that. Somebody far away has decided that NObody is qualified to live outside the megalopolis. They aren't being forced out by the next wave of humanity, its a mechanical process that actually has no discernible positive effect on any human life at all.

    There is precedent, those of us that know something of history know that.
    Communist nations of the 20th century were particularly fond of forced migrations. In Romania, Systematization was the term for taking whole villages where people had lived for centuries, and putting all the people in Co-op City type Apartment blocks on the edge of the industrial belts. There was little work and nothing the people were familiar with, and no hope that their children would do anything besides become drug-addicted Gangsters.
    It has happened before, will it happen again?


    And the means being used are not even legitimate.
    This is the Vid mentioned by others here, I include it in the OP so that we can have a base for the legal aspect of this thread--

  • #2
    I prospected in Williams Ore. and found that the people there were nice if a bit on the dull side. I'd consider moving up there because the living costs are so low in comparison. Plus there's the gold...
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not sure what your exact position on this matter is. From a practical standpoint, the Feds do not and never will have the manpower to adequately patrol or manage the vast tracts of land that they "own". However, since their power derives solely from the people according to the articles that created America, the land actually belongs to us.

      Here in Colorado, BLM controls a lot of the countryside around us on paper, but in reality, everybody pretty much does what they please since you can go a lifetime without ever seeing a BLM employee anywhere.

      Since the Feds don't adequately fund management, fire mitigation or much of anything else, Federal lands are just another failed government project as far as most Americans are concerned.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • #4
        Just reinstate Homestead Act and turn over the federally owned lands to the states. The Federal government shouldn't own that much of the land except for obvious reasons like military bases.
        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

        "Aim small, miss small."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
          I prospected in Williams Ore. and found that the people there were nice if a bit on the dull side. I'd consider moving up there because the living costs are so low in comparison. Plus there's the gold...
          Williams... the one east of Selma? They have a honky-tonk there that I never did get around to checking out. Yeah, there are only a couple hundred people there, and you can't drive to Selma in the winter.
          But Grant's Pass and Medford are only about half an hour to an hour away.

          When the price of Gold gets back up there, you will see more prospecting. The guys that pull an ounce a week can't meet expenses very well... I can't even imagine what the fees are like now.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cheetah772 View Post
            Just reinstate Homestead Act and turn over the federally owned lands to the states. The Federal government shouldn't own that much of the land except for obvious reasons like military bases.
            Exactly. There is no reason for the federal government to own over 50% of several state's land. While it's nice to know that the end of the street I have rural property on is Coronado National Forest and likely to never have anything done on it, it also means that my property will remain mostly rural too...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
              Williams... the one east of Selma? They have a honky-tonk there that I never did get around to checking out. Yeah, there are only a couple hundred people there, and you can't drive to Selma in the winter.
              But Grant's Pass and Medford are only about half an hour to an hour away.

              When the price of Gold gets back up there, you will see more prospecting. The guys that pull an ounce a week can't meet expenses very well... I can't even imagine what the fees are like now.
              Can't live on $ 4,000 a month? Tough...

              I live on less than that and I'm twice retired.

              BTW - you still haven't stated your position.
              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I'm not sure what your exact position on this matter is. From a practical standpoint, the Feds do not and never will have the manpower to adequately patrol or manage the vast tracts of land that they "own". However, since their power derives solely from the people according to the articles that created America, the land actually belongs to us.

                Here in Colorado, BLM controls a lot of the countryside around us on paper, but in reality, everybody pretty much does what they please since you can go a lifetime without ever seeing a BLM employee anywhere.

                Most BLM personal never work outsde their office, and those offices tend to be rather large-


                https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3616.../data=!3m1!1e3

                I count 8 buildings beside the multi-story complex at left, and this is just for the relatively small and settled county of Jackson. The size of the parking lot should tell you all you need to know about the amount of people working there.

                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Since the Feds don't adequately fund management, fire mitigation or much of anything else, Federal lands are just another failed government project as far as most Americans are concerned.
                all true, but then why do they keep blocking off access and trying to expand the land they do have?
                Congressman Walden was very specific in that vid up above, I think you should see it.

                And Colorado is more settled, you have more people, and more transplants so there is more money among the people that would be concerned about this.
                That ain't so hereabouts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  http://www.maplandia.com/united-stat.../williams/#map

                  There's gold in them there hills...
                  Credo quia absurdum.


                  Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Can't live on $ 4,000 a month? Tough...

                    I live on less than that and I'm twice retired.


                    Not if your expenses add up to 70% of that, or more.
                    Life costs a little more if you are not just sitting around on your duff.

                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    BTW - you still haven't stated your position.
                    My position would be easy enough to see if you had looked at what is in the link or looked at the Vid. I agree 100% with all of that. The West and the people that live there are being systematically and illegally abused by a distant and careless Govt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cheetah772 View Post
                      Just reinstate Homestead Act and turn over the federally owned lands to the states. The Federal government shouldn't own that much of the land except for obvious reasons like military bases.
                      All the best land has been taken! There are many issues that entangle the issue, tribal claim for one, the damage from over 100 years of unregulated mining that resulted in mercury and and other toxic waste being dumped.
                      In the Silver Valley of Idaho with the advent of the automobile, there was a need for cheap materials to build roads for logging, and later to be used as road base for paved highways.
                      The mining companies finally had a market for the old mounds of slag lying everywhere. They began selling it as road base and for mixing with crushed rock for forestry roads. Every paved road built up until the 1960s used this toxic mix.
                      Every new chuckhole exposes more cadmium, mercury, lead and other chemicals into the rain snow mix, contaminating surface waters, one of the largest Super Fund clean ups in history has been going on for years in this area.
                      If you have never lived in an area where a Super Fund clean up takes place you know that property values go south, and the Federal Gov. runs everything!
                      On top of that, there is water available for the existing agricultural needs now.
                      Also, much of the land is steep mountains, the forested areas are dry and vulnerable to fire, with the limitations placed on logging permits this will not change.
                      So what does one do for a living when the only thing of value is timber and it is impossible to get a permit to cut it?
                      We have communities all over the North West that once were thriving but now with the mills shut down they are just dwindling away.
                      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                        So what does one do for a living when the only thing of value is timber and it is impossible to get a permit to cut it?
                        We have communities all over the North West that once were thriving but now with the mills shut down they are just dwindling away.
                        This is the primary reason I want to sell the land and move. Btw I'm counting the timber in the value of my land...
                        Credo quia absurdum.


                        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The problem of public land not being public is not new to the West.
                          “Breaking News,”

                          “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                            All the best land has been taken!....
                            No, the very best land has been taken, there is still plenty that is good, useful and untaped.

                            And good point about the Timber, billions of board-feet are generated annually by natural growth. What happens to it? It gets burned up in huge and uncontrollable fires that rage every year and fill my valley with smoke every summer. No joke, our air-quality warnings rival those you get in L.A. in the summer.

                            When the Feds promised financial aid in exchange for banning logging, I knew what was coming. Sure enough, they went back on the deal and now you have even worse poverty, this time mandated and enforced by the Govt.
                            So much for "welfare", our libraries all shut down a few years ago thanks to this, but fortunately they were turned over to Private enterprise and have re-opened.

                            But if you go out and try to cut that Timber that the Govt is not paying you not to cut, you can count on guys with guns showing up to stop you.
                            Another double-cross.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The rest of the world is far away, and you don't have to obsess about how its being run, or ruined.
                              At least, that's how it was supposed to be.
                              Then you do not fit into that group.
                              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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