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Shoot no Shoot? Shouldn't there be a third choice?

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  • Shoot no Shoot? Shouldn't there be a third choice?

    CHICAGO -- Mayor Rahm Emanuel is expected to announce changes in tactics and training for Chicago police on Wednesday, including a goal for every officer on street duty to be equipped with a Taser by summer.
    Emanuel also is expected to announce new training for the department that will emphasize teaching officers to try to de-escalate conflicts rather than to see every confrontation as a "shoot or don't shoot" situation. It was unclear late Tuesday how the training that Chicago police officials described differs from current procedure.
    http://www.officer.com/news/12153578...fficers-tasers
    Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
    Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

  • #2
    The third option should be the use of martial arts. I'm a big proponent of Aikido for obvious reasons. You don't have to shoot someone to take them down. And it builds confidence in yourself. Which would lead to less shootings. (If you have confidence in yourself you'll be less likely to pull a trigger.)

    Just saying...
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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    • #3
      Ah, morons.

      Every call is a 'shoot, don't shoot'. It just typically happens so quickly and automatically that the civilians never notice.

      I do find it surprising that agencies like mine with a couple hundred total officers (all divisions) are far more on the cutting edge than Chicago and NY. All of us have tasers, including the detectives that don't work the street on the regular. It's not really a sinecure like he's hoping, but they're useful.
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
        Ah, morons.

        Every call is a 'shoot, don't shoot'. It just typically happens so quickly and automatically that the civilians never notice.

        I do find it surprising that agencies like mine with a couple hundred total officers (all divisions) are far more on the cutting edge than Chicago and NY. All of us have tasers, including the detectives that don't work the street on the regular. It's not really a sinecure like he's hoping, but they're useful.

        I hope if I ever get pulled over for anything the officer wants to add me fir my licence or my name or at meant say "hi" before he pulls his gun!
        According to the statements in the a article it has never occurred to them that you can have an encounter that doesn't result in gun fire.
        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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        • #5
          Even in my one occurance where the cop pulled his gun on me, he talked to first.

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          • #6
            Don't resist, do what you're told and don't threaten the cop and you won't get shot. Simple as that.
            "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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            • #7
              "Beat senseless" should also be regarded as an option, since they are already employing that in some other jurisdictions..

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                Even in my one occurance where the cop pulled his gun on me, he talked to first.
                With IIRC 3-4 exceptions, every person I've pulled my sidearm on in 6 years had no idea that they were one stupid decision from meeting their maker. They made a right choice that resulted in them never actually seeing the sidearm.

                The last time I broke leather was on a suspect I was chasing. I was by myself, on a cold night, in a foot chase through a poorly lit neighborhood, with a guy wanted on multiple felony warrants. Suspect spins around without warning with his hands near his waistband.....I break leather mid-stride as I'm practically skidding to a stop under the one street light and he drops to his knees with his hands high before I get my weapon all the way up and trained on him. Since I never pointed the weapon it didn't count as use of force.....the mere implication that getting shot was "on the table" as an option encouraged rapid rethinking of a series of poor choices.

                Of course things are a little different when the units coming to back you up have a 5-10 minute response time at 145mph......under those circumstances I can reasonably escalate extremely quickly, as I'm for all intents and purposes the only law for 10+ miles. My section is roughly 15 miles long by 8 miles wide......and my backup units have sections about equally sized.....

                People that don't make those sorts of decisions for a living often see the world as "shoot or don't shoot". There are a whole host of choices available. And even when you break leather, the options are still vast.....since you can always drop it back in the holster, or go to the force level of loud verbal commands now that it's obvious that you're (pun intended) deadly serious. Tasers are a good step, though at this point Chicago is so far behind the power curve on less lethal options that it's almost a 'feel good' measure to make Rahm seem like he's 'doing something'. My shift of 11 boasts what, 6 less lethal shotguns (bean bags), 11 tasers, 3 Level III shields (not really a less lethal option, though having something to bunker behind can buy you a couple of seconds where a fully exposed officer would have to take the shot), plus 2 members of the SWAT team and all their gear, and a K9. And that's not counting the SWAT team as an option with their armory of less lethal options.

                Good training, coupled with good policy that gives firm guidance without micromanaging, and spending the budget on making sure that the officers are equipped to do their job.........remember, bullets are cheaper than bean bags and pistols are cheaper than Tasers, so when you cut the budget, what do you think you're really cutting?
                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                • #9
                  It's not like it's rocket science:

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                    ...

                    I do find it surprising that agencies like mine with a couple hundred total officers (all divisions) are far more on the cutting edge than Chicago and NY. All of us have tasers, including the detectives that don't work the street on the regular. It's not really a sinecure like he's hoping, but they're useful.
                    I think the answer to your question is in the question itself.

                    A P.D. with 50,000+ members is going to be going for Quantity over Quality, like the Army vs the Marine approach, only more so.
                    And then there is the union to consider...

                    Better personal, or more back-up, that seems to be the choice and the choice isn't always being made in a very good way.
                    "Why is the Rum gone?"

                    -Captain Jack

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                    • #11
                      De-escalation is the policy that is followed in Europe, or most of it. It works rather well for most cases.
                      Wisdom is personal

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                        The third option should be the use of martial arts. I'm a big proponent of Aikido for obvious reasons. You don't have to shoot someone to take them down. And it builds confidence in yourself. Which would lead to less shootings. (If you have confidence in yourself you'll be less likely to pull a trigger.)

                        Just saying...
                        For law enforcement, it leaves them wide open to excessive force lawsuits. For the trained law abiding citizen, a good chance that they can disarmed the assailant and quickly teach him a lesson he will not soon forget.

                        Hand to hand is a last resort tactic that is only used when all other options, such as running, hiding, or shooting back become unavailable.
                        “Breaking News,”

                        “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                          Don't resist, do what you're told and don't threaten the cop and you won't get shot. Simple as that.
                          Yep.
                          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                            The third option should be the use of martial arts. I'm a big proponent of Aikido for obvious reasons. You don't have to shoot someone to take them down. And it builds confidence in yourself. Which would lead to less shootings. (If you have confidence in yourself you'll be less likely to pull a trigger.)

                            Just saying...
                            It seems that in a majority of shootings, the suspect appears armed. Akido is no help in such a situation and requires a lengthy period of training to even begin to master.

                            The solution is to educate the populace in their responsibilities, not the police. If you poke a bear in the eye with a sharp stick, you get what you deserve.

                            "Just saying..."
                            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                            • #15
                              First, you will never find me in a bad area at night. Next, if I get pulled over, ( which has not happened since 1989), my interior lights go on and my hands are on the steering wheel.
                              Third, I say either 'yes sir' or "no sir". I always have my registration and insurance papers in a holder on my visor, I can produce both without going into the glovebox.
                              There is no way possible I am going to run from an officer, never have, never will. I'm a terrible runner, can't even walk fast! My left ankle was crushed when I was a kid.
                              I don't drink, unless I'm at home, I don't do drugs unless my doctor gives them to me.
                              My last interaction with the police was me calling them because of a strange vehicle idling outside my house for over an hour.
                              Also I know about every cop in my small town.
                              So if a cop pulls a gun on me, it's him, not me...I do have a CCL, which is why my hands are always open, visible and I would comply with any order given.
                              So far, it's worked....but then I'm not living in Baltimore and don't plan on ever doing that!
                              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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