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  • Biscuit
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post
    Welcome back, my long lost love.....
    Thanks for the warm welcome! Its good to be back!

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Biscuit View Post
    I think you may have hit on the exact problem: Its not one statue, or one street name. Efforts across the country to remove all statues, street names, and school names is polarizing. Many people feel empowered, but just as many people feel like their heritage and history is being erased. If we really wanted to effect change, we'd have some honest conversations.

    I wish President Lincoln could some how chime in with his two cents. I can't think of an ACW figure more committed to preserving the Union than him.
    Welcome back, my long lost love.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Biscuit
    replied
    Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
    No, taking down a memorial to a single person is not denying they existed. That is NOT the function of a memorial. Otherwise we'd have to have a memorial for every of ANY historical interest at all.
    I think you may have hit on the exact problem: Its not one statue, or one street name. Efforts across the country to remove all statues, street names, and school names is polarizing. Many people feel empowered, but just as many people feel like their heritage and history is being erased. If we really wanted to effect change, we'd have some honest conversations.

    I wish President Lincoln could some how chime in with his two cents. I can't think of an ACW figure more committed to preserving the Union than him.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    And in an ironic twist, by your own posts, should another round of Civil War kick off, you'll be on the side of the Confederacy.....

    After all, you're angry at the establishment for what you see as a destruction of traditions and the original form of governance as previously established before the current form of governance and its ancillaries. ...
    Sure, but I am not advocating or even taking very seriously any current efforts to break away.
    I believe that Progressive policy will lead to the downfall and collapse of the US, and it will happen too swiftly for any secession movement to even organize itself to the point where it could function. A destabilized US will find itself under massive assault by invaders from every point on the compass, and the more Radical among us will be fighting for the continued existence of the nation, against foreign enemies and a massive 5th column within the US at the same time.
    We won't have the luxury of what you are talking about, only Alaska and Hawaii have anything near to what it would take, and they would be the first to be occupied, by Russia and China respectively.

    And if I had been around in 1860, I would not have chosen the side who's points of disagreement with the rest of the US was a refusal to grow past slavery, and the upper-class's greater sympathy with the European aristocracy than with the Republic itself.

    Leave a comment:


  • TacCovert4
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    .

    The Confederacy was the most colossal instance of mass-treason this nation has ever endured, and there were a lot of dummies that thought it was a good thing. They existed on the same land you and I walk around on today, and once in a while people need to be reminded of that.
    Maybe then, they will think of the cost, the destruction, and HOPEFULLY stop thinking of another Civil War as a reasonable thing to do, or at least stop taking it so lightly.
    Because, IMHO, we are close today, real close.

    Are y'all seeing my point yet, or do I have to spell it out in Latin?
    And in an ironic twist, by your own posts, should another round of Civil War kick off, you'll be on the side of the Confederacy.....

    After all, you're angry at the establishment for what you see as a destruction of traditions and the original form of governance as previously established before the current form of governance and its ancillaries.

    Until the war decided the question, the question of Secession had never been tested or tried. There were two opinions, and until they were resolved, there was no 'ruling'. With no language Binding the Several States together In Perpetuity with NO POSSIBILITY of division, there was no Treason in Secession.

    The Several States that formed the Confederacy felt that the United States no longer represented their interests, and indeed that it sought to impose what they felt to be tyranny upon them. Therefore they left. What difference is there between that, and those that today believe that the Progressive Leftists taking full control of the government could be cause to overthrow said government and replace it, because said government would be in violation of the Constitution and their interests?

    Leave a comment:


  • Pirateship1982
    replied
    Originally posted by At ease View Post
    Just for the record, I believe in the Creator God.

    1. I believe that the world/universe/man was created in the timeframe and manner set out in the Book of Genesis, and have no problem accepting what was written.

    2. I believe that denying history by removing monuments, outlawing flags etc, is wrong - regardless of the subject.

    Dynamiting Auschwitz, for example, would not undo the Holocaust.

    If you want to reduce the mental status of everyone who believes in the Creation to that of psychiatric institution inmates then go ahead.

    But I am reasonably certain that my contributions to this forum over the last six years, inter alia, would suggest that people such as myself are capable of rational thought and expression.

    Not everyone necessarily feels the need to go along with the tide of popular opinion.

    Disagreement with what a lot of people here(and elsewhere) say, certainly.

    Intellectually dishonest and/or intellectually deficient, certainly not.

    Not in my case, anyway.
    I've gone from evolutionist to creationist to independent. Never could get into the evolutionists petulant whining over creationists even after becoming an equal opportunity skeptic. They're too full of themselves.
    Last edited by Pirateship1982; 19 Dec 15, 16:18.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trung Si
    replied
    Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
    You're confusing MEMORIALIZING a person and forgetting history. SIlly arguement. I'm quite sure they'll not forget the Civil War. Quite important to the area.
    No it's not silly at all, in these cases lately it looks to me like it's "Out of Sight, Out of Mind".

    Leave a comment:


  • Trung Si
    replied
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    Just like Texans still claim that they do...

    Leave a comment:


  • At ease
    replied
    Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
    What these folks want to do is to deny history. By removing memorials of individuals who actually made history albeit un-PC history, the city is denying such people ever existed. They DID exist. The things that they championed existed. It's a fact.
    The people who would minimize and deny the history of only 150 years ago are sort of like those folks who believe that the earth is only eight thousand years old.
    Just for the record, I believe in the Creator God.

    1. I believe that the world/universe/man was created in the timeframe and manner set out in the Book of Genesis, and have no problem accepting what was written.

    2. I believe that denying history by removing monuments, outlawing flags etc, is wrong - regardless of the subject.

    Dynamiting Auschwitz, for example, would not undo the Holocaust.

    If you want to reduce the mental status of everyone who believes in the Creation to that of psychiatric institution inmates then go ahead.

    But I am reasonably certain that my contributions to this forum over the last six years, inter alia, would suggest that people such as myself are capable of rational thought and expression.

    Not everyone necessarily feels the need to go along with the tide of popular opinion.

    Disagreement with what a lot of people here(and elsewhere) say, certainly.

    Intellectually dishonest and/or intellectually deficient, certainly not.

    Not in my case, anyway.
    Last edited by At ease; 19 Dec 15, 07:26. Reason: Grammar.

    Leave a comment:


  • SRV Ron
    replied
    Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
    No, taking down a memorial to a single person is not denying they existed. That is NOT the function of a memorial. Otherwise we'd have to have a memorial for every of ANY historical interest at all.
    So, you think that it was perfectly OK for the Taliban to blow up the centuries old Buddhist statue carved into the cliff side in Afghanistan? Digging up the grave of a Confederate General is perfectly OK? Calling for the demolition of a sculpture in Stone Mountain OK?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gixxer86g
    replied
    Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
    And the current people no longer want the memorial. So why are they not simply exercising their freedom? No, they are PC-Punks instead.... interesting view.
    They should take down the memorials. And they should replace them with ones more appropriate to the city. Like a memorial for Nagin's flooded school buses. And a memorial for Rep. Jefferson's creative use of the National Guard. And a memorial for how the community and the police joined together.......to loot!

    Leave a comment:


  • Daemon of Decay
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post
    What does it really have to do with Conservatives? You can prove that everyone that supports the removal of public Confederate monuments and symbols are all Liberals?

    While I support the removal of that monument for that 1874 uprising, I am on the fence about the Davis and PTB statues. I am against the removal of the Lee statue.

    Other than the uprising monument, I really do not buy into the argument that they are are divisive and are just PC actions to fulfill a "feel good" moment, just like every idiot that voted for Obama.

    What if we somehow reunited with Britain in the future, will the statues of our Founding Fathers and our Revolutionary and 1812 Generals be thrown under the bus?

    We criticize groups such as ISIS and AQ that destroys historical monuments in Iraq and Syria just because it offends their version of the world and Islam and yet some of the very same critics rub their hands together in glee with the destruction of our own historical monuments. No matter how many monuments that the Islamists destroys, it cannot modify history to all Islam just as no matter what we do, we can never remove the shame of our past in the enslaving our fellow man.
    Probably because just because something was erected doesn't give it intrinsic social, cultural, or historical worth.

    Saying "we want statues honoring and celebrating figures we find despicable removed" is not the same thing as "we want to erase these events from history".

    Should the US have left all those statues of Saddam standing? Refrained from repurposing any of his palaces? Not make alterations to any roads damaged by bombing to preserve the history of those events?

    As for the conservative element, well, I'm certainly making an assumption, but it's certainly based on documented and observed phenomenon. We could always double check and see how many of the people talking about PC in this thread are Obama supporters.

    Leave a comment:


  • johns624
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    It is a reminder that once upon a time, people really were this ed up.

    The Confederacy was the most colossal instance of mass-treason this nation has ever endured, and there were a lot of dummies that thought it was a good thing. They existed on the same land you and I walk around on today, and once in a while people need to be reminded of that.
    Maybe then, they will think of the cost, the destruction, and HOPEFULLY stop thinking of another Civil War as a reasonable thing to do, or at least stop taking it so lightly.
    Because, IMHO, we are close today, real close.
    I agree with you, to a point. Many Confederate memorials are of the "gee, that's ma great grandpappy, he kilt a bunch of dem damn Yankee" variety. They are actually proud of them. Then there are the historical memorials, like at Fort Sumter and Andersonville, showing how screwed up things were. The former is bad, the latter is good. It's sort of like the memorial at Dachau is a good reminder of WW2, while a memorial to Hitler wouldn't be. I guess that it all depends on the context.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
    And those who would erase it are probably wanting to.

    Originally posted by Salinator View Post
    ....
    While I support the removal of that monument for that 1874 uprising, I am on the fence about the Davis and PTB statues. I am against the removal of the Lee statue. ....
    No no no NO.
    You are not getting my point any better than CE is.

    Our personal preferences are not what must guide us in this.


    This is a concrete reminder that this happened. Its not a dry reference on the web or a textbook (do they still use those?) This is something to stand in front of that cannot be denied.
    It is a reminder that once upon a time, people really were this ed up.

    The Confederacy was the most colossal instance of mass-treason this nation has ever endured, and there were a lot of dummies that thought it was a good thing. They existed on the same land you and I walk around on today, and once in a while people need to be reminded of that.
    Maybe then, they will think of the cost, the destruction, and HOPEFULLY stop thinking of another Civil War as a reasonable thing to do, or at least stop taking it so lightly.
    Because, IMHO, we are close today, real close.

    Are y'all seeing my point yet, or do I have to spell it out in Latin?

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    That's because it's only PC when conservatives disagree with it.
    What does it really have to do with Conservatives? You can prove that everyone that supports the removal of public Confederate monuments and symbols are all Liberals?

    While I support the removal of that monument for that 1874 uprising, I am on the fence about the Davis and PTB statues. I am against the removal of the Lee statue.

    Other than the uprising monument, I really do not buy into the argument that they are are divisive and are just PC actions to fulfill a "feel good" moment, just like every idiot that voted for Obama.

    What if we somehow reunited with Britain in the future, will the statues of our Founding Fathers and our Revolutionary and 1812 Generals be thrown under the bus?

    We criticize groups such as ISIS and AQ that destroys historical monuments in Iraq and Syria just because it offends their version of the world and Islam and yet some of the very same critics rub their hands together in glee with the destruction of our own historical monuments. No matter how many monuments that the Islamists destroys, it cannot modify history to all Islam just as no matter what we do, we can never remove the shame of our past in the enslaving our fellow man.

    Leave a comment:

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