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Carpet bomb ISIS and kill their families?

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  • #91
    Well, answer me this one though.

    How is leaving them ALIVE working out for you?

    If you can answer that one with straight face, then we have nothing to discuss.
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Cheetah772 View Post
      Well, answer me this one though.

      How is leaving them ALIVE working out for you?

      If you can answer that one with straight face, then we have nothing to discuss.
      Again another black and white fallacy. Well if we're not carpet bombing and wiping entire cities then we're leaving them alive. Stop.

      FWIW there has not been an ISIS, Taliban or Al Qaeda attack on US soil since 9/11. While there have been terror attacks since then, they were all domestic with no direct assistance from any terror organization. So killing everyone in Syria would not have prevented those attacks from occurring.
      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
      - Benjamin Franklin

      The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
        I brought up legality in response to PhillipLaos asking if American officers would be legally justified in refusing to carry out an order. Orders can only be ignored if they are not lawful and what I'm talking about absolutely is lawful. That's why I didn't just use WWII as an example and included Korea, Vietnam and to a lesser extent Desert Storm. If those bombing campaigns were not war crimes then what I am suggesting isn't either.
        Targeting entire cities (if defended) was 100% lawful in 1945; it would be against Additional Protocol II 1977 to Geneva IV 1948, today.
        Korea and Vietnam also were before 1977.
        I don't recall "carpet bombing" during Desert Storm.

        Note that not every country in the world is a signatory of Additional Protocol II 1977, which leaves space for some disagreement; most experts and many countries maintain that by now, the standards of 1977 have become customary law, thus binding for non-signatories too; non-signatories, understandably, disagree. But even non-signatories have abstained from carrying out all-out "carpet bombings" in the sense of 1945.
        Michele

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        • #94
          Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

          FWIW there has not been an ISIS, Taliban or Al Qaeda attack on US soil since 9/11. While there have been terror attacks since then, they were all domestic with no direct assistance from any terror organization. So killing everyone in Syria would not have prevented those attacks from occurring.

          He thinks that San Bernardino is located in Spain

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          • #95
            Carpet bombing is hyperbole. I suspect President Cruz will direct the USAF to bomb the s out of them & the generals will sort out how it gets done.
            A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              Well, we'll have to see how effective the ISIS aircraft production rates get to.

              Or perhaps you are confusing strategic bombing with tactical air support...

              You don't beat ISIS by reprisal bombing, but you can dry up the sea of support.
              Or....you can do it much more effectively, and without killing innocent civilians, by going after their sources of money. You make their money dry up and after a while they will have trouble sustaining their operations. You never spent any time in uniform have you? I am also guessing that maybe history was not your strong suit?
              Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

              Initiated Chief Petty Officer
              Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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              • #97
                Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                We're not talking about terror bombing and intentionally targeting civilians for its own sake. What we're talking about is going after IS targets relentlessly no matter what might be located near them. That would hardly give IS a chance to regeoup. If you want to use the WWII comparison it's more accurate to compare it to Allied area bombing of militarily valuable regions. A big part of it is the embarrassingly low sortie rate were running too. Desert Storm's air campaign averaged more than 1,000 sorties a day. The current campaign averages about 6. All we nees is a real air campain thats not handicapped by IS's use of human shields and isn't a feel good sham.

                Speaking of human shields if you stop letting them affect you in the short run the enemy will stop using them in the long run. If they don't stop attacks they have no value and only serve to alienate the locals who are being used as shields. Thus IS stops the practice or loses support for no gain.
                Forgive me but isn't the title of the tread is "Carpet bomb ISIS and kill their families." I am all about going after those ISIS assholes but carpet bombing is a rather indiscriminate means of attack. I would think that using A-10 Warthogs to frag their fuel convoys may work a bit better. Using JDAMS to take out their C2 nodes is also a good idea. Tracking their online activities to their source and putting the supporters and financiers behind bars may work pretty well too. Carpet bombing......I that would probably not yield the results that would hope for, although it may be satisfying at a certain primal level to turn Raqqa into a parking lot.
                Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                  This is totally wrong : from the first day on of the BoB,the LW was losing .
                  You better do a bit more research.

                  While the bombing of London was painful for the British, it did give a much needed break to the RAF forces. Bases and factories could be repaired, plane inventory could be replaced. With their increasing strength, the RAF continued to deal the Germans horrendous losses, finally to the point that the Luftwaffe could no longer afford to absorb the punishment.

                  Eventually, all daylight bombing missions were cancelled, and Operation Sea Lion was indefinitely postponed. Night bombing raids would continue (The Blitz), but the Battle of Britain was over, the British had won. Thanks to one lone bomber, a successful "impossible" mission, and Hitler's ego, the last bastion of freedom in Europe had been saved.
                  http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/britain/airbattle.html
                  Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                  Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                  Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
                    Carpet bombing is hyperbole. I suspect President Cruz will direct the USAF to bomb the s out of them & the generals will sort out how it gets done.
                    That's the approach I've taken to all this. Nobody seriously thinks we're going to line up a bunch of B-52s and start working over grid squares. An unrestricted targeted bombing campaign is more realistica and effective.
                    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                    • Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                      This source is wrong :

                      a) from the first day on of the BoB,the Germans were attacking British cities: there was no sudden change in the German strategy


                      b) with (and IMHO even without) hindsight,it is obvious that the LW was not capable tp defeat FC .

                      If one is looking at the German aims, the LW had already failed before the big attacks on London .

                      The reason for the Blitz was that the LW had failed,but it is not so that the Blitz caused the German failure .

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                      • From the AHF (by Hop)

                        British civilian casualties from air raids

                        July : 258

                        August : 1075 (136 children and 392 women )

                        September : 6954

                        October : 6334


                        November :4588


                        December : 3793


                        Thus, Hitler's ego (as was saying the Polish site ) had nothing to do with the German attacks on British cities .

                        I should also warn against the use of a Polish site about the Bo B,this for obvious reasons .

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                        • [QUOTE=sebfrench76;
                          When will you get a real politician with a vision for your country and not a bunch of guys reacting like ados typing twitters ?[/QUOTE]

                          Seb!
                          Unfortunately the last real politician we had left office on Jan. 20 1961.
                          Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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                          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            This source is wrong :

                            a) from the first day on of the BoB,the Germans were attacking British cities: there was no sudden change in the German strategy


                            b) with (and IMHO even without) hindsight,it is obvious that the LW was not capable tp defeat FC .

                            If one is looking at the German aims, the LW had already failed before the big attacks on London .

                            The reason for the Blitz was that the LW had failed,but it is not so that the Blitz caused the German failure .
                            It is not and there are quite a few more that I will not get into while we are on this topic. I recommend that you start a new tread in the WWII forum; I will be happy take up the topic of the Battle of Britain with you again at that time if you really care.

                            Hitler’s decision to bomb London turned the battle in Britain’s favor.

                            The Luftwaffe’s bombing campaigns in England were initially restricted to military and industrial targets, but the strategy changed in September 1940, after the RAF launched a retaliatory raid against Berlin. The strike sent Hitler into a fit of rage. Ignoring the progress the Luftwaffe was making in attacking RAF air bases, he demanded they shift their focus toward “erasing” British cities from the map. The bombing campaign now known as the Blitz began on September 7 with a raid on London, and dozens more attacks followed over the next several weeks. While the bombings took a sobering toll on British civilians, they also temporarily relieved pressure on the RAF, allowing it to repair its crippled airfields and refresh its pilots. The respite proved critical. When the Luftwaffe tried to score a knockout blow with a massive air attack on September 15, a resilient RAF intercepted them and downed roughly 60 aircraft. Hitler was forced to shelve Operation Sea Lion only a few days later.
                            http://www.history.com/news/10-thing...tle-of-britain
                            Last edited by Bass_Man86; 18 Dec 15, 13:44.
                            Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                            Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                            Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
                              Forgive me but isn't the title of the tread is "Carpet bomb ISIS and kill their families." I am all about going after those ISIS assholes but carpet bombing is a rather indiscriminate means of attack. I would think that using A-10 Warthogs to frag their fuel convoys may work a bit better. Using JDAMS to take out their C2 nodes is also a good idea. Tracking their online activities to their source and putting the supporters and financiers behind bars may work pretty well too. Carpet bombing......I that would probably not yield the results that would hope for, although it may be satisfying at a certain primal level to turn Raqqa into a parking lot.
                              YUP!

                              One benefit of about 60+ years of tech improvement is we can get "semi"-precise in bombing/targeting and would be best to follow that track. IS/ISIS/ISIL (and similar) have a frequent tactic of using civilians for human shields and many "innocents" have been trapped in the IS territory and don't have the ability to leave, if we are morally better than those whom we fight, we need to act in a way that reflects it.

                              That being said, there may be occasions and targets that could be subject to more massive bombardment, revised Arc Light comes to mind ...
                              http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/AirOps/arclight.html
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arc_Light

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                              • Originally posted by Michele View Post
                                ....
                                I don't recall "carpet bombing" during Desert Storm.

                                ...
                                Not of cities, but was done against Iraqi defensive "boxes" on the front line in prep of our guys going over the wire.

                                Saddam had deployed his forces in battalion sized defensive positions, somewhat square box shaped with sand berm walls and defensive trenches and bunkers about the perimeter. IIRC, these were close to a kilometer length on the side, and were spaced a couple of klics from each other peppering the forward line of defense.

                                During the airstrikes and bombardment in the weeks prior to our ground troops making the assault and penetration of the Iraqi positions, each night one "box" was the target of an "Arc Light"; usually three B-52s with about 100+ of 500(+)pound bombs. With correct flight path and release time, these pretty much covered the area of a "box". Targeting appeared to be random, so the Iraqis never knew which "box" might be that nights target and which ever one was tended to be heavily decimated. There was a psychological effect to these strikes as well, supposedly.

                                Links in my prior post.

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