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Veterans Urge US Military to Remove Barriers That Prevent Sikhs From Serving

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  • #16
    Who else remembers getting the memo about tattoos? Kinda old school, but damaging government property? Owned bitches. Owned. You sign the dotted line and your owned. For the next four to six years you are property of the military and if you deface such you will pay a price...
    Credo quia absurdum.


    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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    • #17
      ...but no turbans

      Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
      Who else remembers getting the memo about tattoos? Kinda old school, but damaging government property? Owned bitches. Owned. You sign the dotted line and your owned. For the next four to six years you are property of the military and if you deface such you will pay a price...
      Way back in the olden days in the Navy(when I was enlisted) there were a bunch of guys on my ship that got really sunburned and were not able to work their plane handling duties. They got hauled up to Captain's Mast and were given three days in the brig for destruction of government property.
      Also during that era we were allowed to wear beards if we could grow them. Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, CNO at that time, issued broad latitude to naval units to allow enlisted (and some officers) to grow and wear beards as long as they were kept neatly trimmed and clean. (I grew mine to a length of 5")That latitude has since been rescinded and except for small mustaches, facial hair is discouraged if only for safety's sake.
      Officers and enlisted were clearly warned not to get any visible tattoos as well.
      As for Sikhs, well, I suppose they would do well enough in the armed services but would have to comply with dress and grooming regulations the same as everyone else.
      It's called a 'uniform' for a reason.




      Last edited by Jose50; 12 Nov 15, 11:17.
      ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
      IN MARE IN COELO

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      • #18
        Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
        It's very clear. I don't know the regs of the other branches off the top of my head but AR 670-1 explicitly states the grooming and personal appearance standards of the US Army and Army National Guard. It's very easy to find online and would answer any question you might have.
        Ill look into the Ar 670-1(a 66 page document) when I get a chance. Well I can also tell you this much Frisco, my brother served in the US army during the 90s and he had to maintain a clean shave. But on Wikipedia there are the following points which seemingly suggest that certain folks(not just special forces) can have beards

        The U.S. Coast Guard allowed beards until 1986, when they were banned by Commandant Admiral Paul Yost. The majority of police forces in the United States still ban their officers from wearing beards.


        Those with skin conditions such as pseudofolliculitis barbae or severe acne are allowed to maintain short facial hair with the permission of a doctor or medic, but no shaping is allowed, only trimming with an electric razor, or approved regular razor. 1/8 of an inch (3.2 mm) is usually the limit for this condition.


        In 2010, the U.S. Army granted waivers for a number of Sikh soldiers and one Muslim soldier, permitting them to have beards (and in the case of the Sikh soldiers, to have "unshorn" hair covered by turbans).[27][28] In 2010, a rabbi filed suit against the Army for permission to be commissioned as a Jewish chaplain without shaving his beard,[29] noting (among other issues) that another Jewish Chaplain, Colonel Jacob Goldstein, has been serving (first in the New York State National Guard and later in the United States Army Reserve) since 1977 with a beard.[30] Effective January 22, 2014, the US military expanded its policies on religious accommodation and allowed all officer and enlisted personnel to request permission to wear beards and articles of clothing for religious reasons.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial...#United_States

        I found the point about members of the Coast guard to be of interest. It was only about 30 years ago when(according to wiki) the Coast guard banned members from having beards. Plus there is talk of folks in the military with skin issues who are allowed to have a small beard of shorts.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
          Way back in the olden days in the Navy(when I was enlisted) there were a bunch of guys on my ship that got really sunburned and were not able to work their plane handling duties. They got hauled up to Captain's Mast and were given three days in the brig for destruction of government property.
          Also during that era we were allowed to wear beards if we could grow them. Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, CNO at that time, issued broad latitude to naval units to allow enlisted (and some officers) to grow and wear beards as long as they were kept neatly trimmed and clean. (I grew mine to a length of 5")That latitude has since been rescinded and except for small mustaches, facial hair is discouraged if only for safety's sake.
          Officers and enlisted were clearly warned not to get any visible tattoos as well.
          As for Sikhs, well, I suppose they would do well enough in the armed services but would have to comply with dress and grooming regulations the same as everyone else.
          It's called a 'uniform' for a reason.




          Exactly. I expect those who serve to adhere to universal standards. No religious bs. If your religion tries to make you exempt from grooming standards your not fit to serve. GI. General Issue. Either conform or don't join.

          Don't even go to the 'I'm special' bullshite...
          Credo quia absurdum.


          Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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          • #20
            Never been a problem in the British Army.

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            • #21
              Lincoln, Lee, Grant, and even moving up in years to John J Pershing.... had beards or facial hair of some sorts
              They also rode horses.

              The thing with beards is they don't let you get an airtight fit with a gas mask.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                They also rode horses.

                The thing with beards is they don't let you get an airtight fit with a gas mask.
                Bullshit.
                http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic...8/summary.html

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                • #23
                  Yeah, that very thing has been mentioned in the thread and is in the original article. You can have a beard and wear a gas mask. It is not a barrier.

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                  • #24
                    I think that Sikhs can make excellent American servicemen. They've proved their valor over many generations, so I for one will be glad to employ their services here -- but I do not believe that uniform standards should be relaxed, or that special religious groups should be exempted from uniform standards.

                    Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                    You of all folks(you post about events in the ME on a daily basis) must be aware that there have been American troops with large beards stationed in the Middle east.


                    Additionally, for almost a decade, ending with a "deauthorization" order that took effect on September 7, 2010, many Special Forces members in Afghanistan were allowed to wear beards.[26]

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial...#United_States

                    https://www.google.com/search?q=faci...IVAZYeCh1z6wW7

                    https://www.google.com/search?q=faci...l+forces+beard
                    You've quoted the reason why you've seen US personnel with beards: their special operations. Their role is different, and often requires them to "blend in." They are not leg infantry, though they can -- and have -- been employed as such. For many years US Army Special Forces also had a foreign language requirement, such is the unique nature of their role.

                    Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                    Its not clear what the policy of the Air Force, Navy, Army as well as National guard is toward beards. I suppose one of the military members(Frisco for example) can link us to an official site which can provide the forum with rules irt facial hair.
                    Here's the word from the Suck:

                    Given a CBRN [Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear] environment, a field protective mask (SL-3 complete), CBRN alarm and CBRN incident indicator, or an order to mask, employ the Field Protective Mask (FPM) within a time limit of nine seconds of the issuance of the alarm, CBRN
                    incident indicator, or an order.

                    "FMST 301 'The M-50 Field Protective Mask,'" USMC Field Medical Training Bn
                    M-50 came out in 2009 or '10, so this is a fairly recent manual, but the manual for the old M-17 mask stated that the maximum for deploying the mask in response to an alarm was eight seconds. Can you see putting on a mask -- airtight, 'cause if it's not airtight then you're dead -- inside of eight or nine seconds. Some jackass in Saudi Arabia claimed that he could put a mask on over a beard correctly within 9 seconds with the aid of copious amounts of vasoline. Let's just say I find his claim dubious at best.

                    And for the record, I knew a fellow with the NYS National Guard, an E-6 with a Queens-based intelligence unit (no longer there since post-9/11 reorg) and he was a Sikh who wore only a regulation mustache. Indeed, plenty of Sikhs have dropped the long hair and beards and have opted for shorter hair and trimmed mustaches -- and they're not any less Sikh. Hell, Sikh custom obliges men to be armed with a bladed weapon at all times. How many Sikhs do you see out there carrying swords? They carry a small folding knife on a key chain instead. They adopted that custom for this world, they can adopt their hair for it, as well.
                    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                    • #25
                      Concur.
                      ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                      IN MARE IN COELO

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                        How many Sikhs do you see out there carrying swords? They carry a small folding knife on a key chain instead. They adopted that custom for this world, they can adopt their hair for it, as well.
                        It's called a kirpan and it cannot be so small as to be only ceremonial. Folding keychains don't cut it. Folks around here wear them and it's guaranteed by our constitution, upheld by the supreme court.

                        And since a beard friendly gas mask has been patented in Canada I'm pretty sure that if some smart engineer in the U.S.A. would start looking for a solution, rather than listening to excuses, the problem could be dealt with.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                          It's called a kirpan and it cannot be so small as to be only ceremonial. Folding keychains don't cut it. Folks around here wear them and it's guaranteed by our constitution, upheld by the supreme court.

                          And since a beard friendly gas mask has been patented in Canada I'm pretty sure that if some smart engineer in the U.S.A. would start looking for a solution, rather than listening to excuses, the problem could be dealt with.
                          Well, you can always find a practical reason to justify an excuse.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                            It's called a kirpan and it cannot be so small as to be only ceremonial. Folding keychains don't cut it. Folks around here wear them and it's guaranteed by our constitution, upheld by the supreme court.
                            Not in NYC. For all intents and purposes City law bans blades in excess of 3" (7.62cm) in length, and non-citizens are prohibited from carrying any blade. Only in 2014 did NYC DoE come to an accommodation regarding young Sikh male students: they may carry a kirpan on their person, but only if it is secured within its sheath with a chemical adhesive like Krazy Glue. Of this I **** you not. Anyways, the vast bulk of Sikh males 'round here satisfy that custom with small Swiss Army knives and the like. It's not worth the hassle to them. Sikhs may be a lot of things, but they are a fairly practical people.

                            Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                            And since a beard friendly gas mask has been patented in Canada I'm pretty sure that if some smart engineer in the U.S.A. would start looking for a solution, rather than listening to excuses, the problem could be dealt with.
                            Can it be deployed within nine seconds? And since it was invented in Canada, it probably works about as well as Nickelback sings. Rimshot.
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              Not in NYC. For all intents and purposes City law bans blades in excess of 3" (7.62cm) in length, and non-citizens are prohibited from carrying any blade. Only in 2014 did NYC DoE come to an accommodation regarding young Sikh male students: they may carry a kirpan on their person, but only if it is secured within its sheath with a chemical adhesive like Krazy Glue. Of this I **** you not. Anyways, the vast bulk of Sikh males 'round here satisfy that custom with small Swiss Army knives and the like. It's not worth the hassle to them. Sikhs may be a lot of things, but they are a fairly practical people.
                              That is asinine. The U.S.A. has a hard-on for firearms. It's a nation where you can order a handgun by mail, has dumb ass stand your ground laws, wants everyone to carry a gun and even legislates it in some places, embraces and celebrates firearms as a form of jewelry, and it has a problem with kirpans?! You can open carry an M16 but people have a **** over carrying a kirpan. Absolutely ludicrous.

                              Can it be deployed within nine seconds? And since it was invented in Canada, it probably works about as well as Nickelback sings. Rimshot.
                              Dunno. But the guy who patented it has a tour in Bosnia and three tours in Afghanistan. The U.S.A. has engineers right?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Duncan View Post
                                The U.S.A. has engineers right?
                                Yup...and I'll bet that a lot of Canadian engineers trained at places like Georgia Tech, MIT, RIT and Dartmouth. But why go to all the time, effort and expense to re-engineer a gas mask that works perfectly fine already?
                                ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                                IN MARE IN COELO

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