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  • #16
    Originally posted by johns624 View Post
    I'm sure that being commanded to lay still on cold, snowy ground didn't help.
    As opposed to being shot dead? I would lie down, myself. " Uncomfortable" goes away. Dead is permanent.



    And only a complete idiot argues with someone who is aiming a loaded weapon at them.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #17
      He was face down and getting zapped. Maybe he didn't see that she had her gun out. After all, a traffic violation isn't normally considered a capital offense. She didn't seem too in control of herself. Maybe she should find a different line of work.

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      • #18
        I would have to agree she was out of control, she was panicked, she should have waited for backup.
        It's never a good idea to arm someone who can not handle high stress situations.
        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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        • #19
          I haven't had time to review this particular situation in detail enough to provide a cogent response.

          I would like to extend an invitation to all those that have 'simple' and 'easy' solutions to things, or talk about how 'policies' would make massive changes to how things work on the street........

          "I have a Passenger Seat. It is currently unoccupied. If you don't mind sharing some of your space with a computer, radio, ticket book, and raincoat, I can move the rest of it to the trunk."
          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
            I haven't had time to review this particular situation in detail enough to provide a cogent response.

            I would like to extend an invitation to all those that have 'simple' and 'easy' solutions to things, or talk about how 'policies' would make massive changes to how things work on the street........

            "I have a Passenger Seat. It is currently unoccupied. If you don't mind sharing some of your space with a computer, radio, ticket book, and raincoat, I can move the rest of it to the trunk."
            If you watch it a few times you will IMO, see what she did wrong.
            She zaps him with the taser, he has a natural reaction which is to grab his chest, she orders him to put his hand in front, he starts to, she zaps him again, he has the same response.
            In training did she ever get zapped and have people yelling in her ear ordering her not to do what her natural instincts are telling her to do?
            She was undertrained. She was panicked. She never had control of herself or the situation.
            IMO, police are not trained in how to de-escalate a situation these days, they are trained to yell-zap-yell- spray-yell-shoot, not necessarily in that order.
            She had his car, she had his ID, she knew he was hiding in his sisters house, she should have waited go back up.
            Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
            Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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            • #21
              Originally posted by johns624 View Post
              He was face down and getting zapped. Maybe he didn't see that she had her gun out. After all, a traffic violation isn't normally considered a capital offense. She didn't seem too in control of herself. Maybe she should find a different line of work.
              What an asinine statement on so many levels.....in bold

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                If you watch it a few times you will IMO, see what she did wrong.

                I'm sure. But then again, it's rather pointless, as I've long since come to the understanding that I am but a necessary evil, and there are a multitude of people that hate me and my kind regardless of the situation. Such things tend to reduce my willingness to engage in such exercises.


                She zaps him with the taser, he has a natural reaction which is to grab his chest, she orders him to put his hand in front, he starts to, she zaps him again, he has the same response.

                Fascinating analysis. Funny thing about tasers, they don't make you start grabbing yourself. What they do is induce the mother of all cramps, depending on the hit location you might either fold up into a ball, or lock up in the prone. But you don't go grabbing **** as an involuntary spasm.


                In training did she ever get zapped and have people yelling in her ear ordering her not to do what her natural instincts are telling her to do?

                Having been 'zapped', I can assure you that while under power from a good hit, you're not in a position to do a whole hell of a lot, though you can hear and understand even a conversation through the pain. Depending on how good the hit is, you can draw and fire a weapon though....we tested the theory....he even managed 2 hits out of 2 shots fired under power at 5 yards.


                She was undertrained.

                Please link to the copy of her training records.


                She was panicked. She never had control of herself or the situation.
                IMO, police are not trained in how to de-escalate a situation these days, they are trained to yell-zap-yell- spray-yell-shoot, not necessarily in that order.

                Your opinions differ from mine. I'd say experiences, but then that would be assuming that you have any relevant experience outside of waxing eloquent on an online forum after reading an article or watching a video.....which would be about the same as me saying the control layout of the F22 is crap because I watched someone on YouTube bitch about it.

                My opinion, based on experience, is that FAR TOO MUCH training time and effort is spent on de-escalation by verbal means, and that physical control is given such a back seat in training it's almost non-existent. Coupled with todays environment of seeing any 'hands on' control as 'brutality' simply because it occurs, you basically have cops that can only (or will only) talk/tase/shoot. That over-reliance on less lethal options at the expense of skills at actually establishing physical control of subjects, and a mindset that we are ALWAYS screwed when we go 'hands on' because of the public's perception that physical violence is NEVER warranted for any reasons, results in situations escalating in a very rapid spiral, where the application of a timely joint lock and a bit of pressure would have put the subject's actions on pause.

                Reasonable and Sober people have a hard time understanding this, but there are unreasonable people out there....and there are drunks (or high people). Verbal De-Escalation works most of the time with reasonable people, though it still has a failure rate. It CANNOT BE RELIED UPON when dealing with unreasonable people. This subject's actions previous to the application of force, appear to be those of an objectively unreasonable person.


                She had his car, she had his ID, she knew he was hiding in his sisters house, she should have waited go back up.
                Could have? Sure. Should have? I'd need to know more about the totality of the circumstances. And those circumstances would also include the location of possible backup units and their response times. She does appear to be in what would be considered 'immediate and continuous pursuit', from what I can tell. Have to? Absolutely Not.
                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                  Could have? Sure. Should have? I'd need to know more about the totality of the circumstances. And those circumstances would also include the location of possible backup units and their response times. She does appear to be in what would be considered 'immediate and continuous pursuit', from what I can tell. Have to? Absolutely Not.
                  When I said grabbing his chest, I was thinking of the same as balling up, she never stops screaming, ever time he starts to put his hands out, she zaps him again, and he balls up, or grabs his chest, what ever you want to describe it, his reaction is constant.
                  IMO the woman blew it as soon as she went it alone. She needed back up. Added to her level if stress is the fact that she is dealing with the suspect and his family who is off camera.
                  IMO, her training should have taught her not to put herself in such a situation.
                  An unarmed man is dead, shot in the back while lying on the ground, if this is the way our LEOs are trained to handle things, they are in a state of hysteria, and having well armed people in a state of hysteria policing our community is not going to improve police, civilian relationships.
                  i realize on the other side you as a LEO are under stress, but training should stress to control stress.
                  Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                  Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post
                    What an asinine statement on so many levels.....in bold
                    You don't understand sarcasm.
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                      You don't understand sarcasm.
                      I understand it quite well..His mockery notwithstanding...or yours...

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                      • #26
                        Maybe on your third post on the thread, you can actually address the topic of discussion...

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                          Maybe on your third post on the thread, you can actually address the topic of discussion...
                          I did, your just so blinded by hatred you don't see it.....

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post
                            I did, your just so blinded by hatred you don't see it.....
                            Why don't you analyze the video and tell us how you would have handled it.
                            Who am I hating so much?

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