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Does immigration hurt the third world nations?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    And who is saying they're the dregs?
    Every record, statistic and report that has been put out publicly about illegals points out that the vast majority are criminals and/or ignorant and often illiterate. What would you call them - the best and the brightest?

    Point remains - the best and the brightest are not coming here in waves - the people that are not even wanted by their own nations are.

    And, of course, that awkward point about the former excellent infrastructure that just fell apart from neglect in all those countries is still with us.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Every record, statistic and report that has been put out publicly about illegals points out that the vast majority are criminals and/or ignorant and often illiterate. What would you call them - the best and the brightest?

      Point remains - the best and the brightest are not coming here in waves - the people that are not even wanted by their own nations are.

      And, of course, that awkward point about the former excellent infrastructure that just fell apart from neglect in all those countries is still with us.
      Would you have a link for us? Would be interesting to see the numbers.

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      • #18
        The 'brain drain' is a negative for the poor nations but immigrants often send cash home. Moreover many of these nations struggle to support their existing population numbers. They do however keep banging out the babies, growing the population and so there will likely be many millions desiring to come to the west at any given time, for the lifetime of everyone reading this thread. Perhaps there are some rare examples but the third world does not attempt to stop these millions leaving, which tells you something.

        The more pressing question is whether such immigration is good for western nations.
        Ne Obliviscaris, Sans Peur

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
          Brain drain is a well-recognized phenomenon. One of the benefits for a destination nation at the cost of the original nation.
          I am perfectly willing to deny ourselves and send every single immigrant back to their original third world nation so that their motherland can reap the benefits of their elite intellect for herself.
          Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

          Prayers.

          BoRG

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          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Every record, statistic and report that has been put out publicly about illegals points out that the vast majority are criminals and/or ignorant and often illiterate. What would you call them - the best and the brightest?

            Point remains - the best and the brightest are not coming here in waves - the people that are not even wanted by their own nations are.

            And, of course, that awkward point about the former excellent infrastructure that just fell apart from neglect in all those countries is still with us.
            Thank you. I thought I was the only one with that concept.

            Now we can toss in the overpopulation in the entire world..... and we can see a lot of "surplus" people.

            The really sad thing is we really can't do anything about it while we try to preserve the "sanctity" of human life. So, apparently we are doomed to keep proliferating with impunity.

            ...and what is so "sanctified" about a mass murderer! (A plug for capitol punishment.)

            GG
            "The will of a section rooted in self interest, should not outweigh the vital interests of a whole people." -Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain-

            "Fanatics of any sort are dangerous." -GG-

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            • #21
              Interesting article in today´s Daily Telegraph (not sure whether non-subscribers can access it).

              One in eight of the population of Sabaa in Gambia has taken off across the desert to try their luck in Europe; life under a dictator does not appear to be the main motive but rather the chance of a better life elsewhere.

              Life in the rural countryside is undoubtedly hard, but without the young will probably get a lot worse. The spread of basic education provides yet another tool in the desire to get any sort of paying job in the northern "paradise".

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                I am perfectly willing to deny ourselves and send every single immigrant back to their original third world nation so that their motherland can reap the benefits of their elite intellect for herself.
                Yeah, it's best to send those American citizens back to where they came from.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                  And who is saying they're the dregs?
                  I am for one. From various sources and reports on illegals I've read over the years:

                  Two thirds have less than an 8th grade education. About half of those have less than a 6th grade one.

                  They are less healthy and responsible for the resurgence of diseases like TB in the US.

                  Virtually all illegals have been arrested one time. Most have multiple arrests. The average according to one study I read says it's 7.

                  The number of illegal kids that go to college in the US number in the thousands at most, possibly less. Their reported "success" is completely disproportional to their numbers. In Arizona, there are less than 100 currently in state universities.

                  About 60% of all illegals are male and most are between the age of 18 and 35.

                  Illegals are 70% more likely to commit a violent felony than legal immigrants or citizens.

                  Illegals go to prison at double the rate of legal immigrants and citizens.

                  Most illegals have been deported at least one time.

                  That makes them dregs in my estimation.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                    Yeah, it's best to send those American citizens back to where they came from.
                    They're illegals. not American citizens. Unless, of course, you think you can find their immigration applications hidden away somewhere...

                    Are you sure you're not a speechwriter for BoBo? You have the PC victim-speak down pat.

                    Want to cry for someone, cry for the poor and homeless citizens of America, of which there are thousands and thousands.
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      They're illegals. not American citizens. Unless, of course, you think you can find their immigration applications hidden away somewhere...

                      Are you sure you're not a speechwriter for BoBo? You have the PC victim-speak down pat.

                      Want to cry for someone, cry for the poor and homeless citizens of America, of which there are thousands and thousands.
                      While I'm an outspoken critic of political correctness it is disingenuous to not acknowledge that minorities are victims and most illegal aliens are victims of a dysfunctional government.

                      As an analogy I offer you the case of the abused spouse. Do we fail to offer abused woman help because they made poor choices in men, are somehow emotionally illiterate having dependency issue, have no experience for self support, are arguably enabling child abuse, or simply too stupid to help themselves? If we limit our compassion to those who deserve it the world would be a sad place. Focusing on the negative attributes of illegal immigrants is counter productive to the extent that it is always better in politics to hold the moral high ground and show compassion.

                      The only relevant issue with illegal immigration is that it is illegal. Just as every nation monitors and controls trade across it's borders every nation controls the flow of people. The movement of people is of course complicated by international refugee standards and human rights. Ignoring political refugees for the moment the U.N. human rights convention that we are bound by states.

                      Article 13.

                      (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
                      (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

                      In an ideal world that would mean that people could cross national borders with only minimum interference. In the United States that minimal interference is represented by visa regulations. It is evident that they are no more restrictive than the standards other nations apply. Supporters of free immigration are obviously applying a double standard.

                      Article 15.

                      (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
                      (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

                      Again the United States is well within the standard for naturalization within the world community. Those that think otherwise need to educate themselves on that standard.

                      When these Articles were written no one probably imagined the number of economic refugees we are experiencing. For me the major problem with illegal immigration is how it abuses the rights of legal immigrants and negatively effects the rule of law transforming an orderly society into a dysfunctional anarchy. Those that argue for free immigration I would argue are in fact anarchist that would circumvent the normal political process to advance their agenda.

                      What conservatives must come to grips with is that they are free-market anarchist who hypocritical require that all other aspects of social intercourse must be carefully regulated.
                      We hunt the hunters

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        They're illegals.
                        Not in the post I was responding to.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                          I am for one. From various sources and reports on illegals I've read over the years:

                          Two thirds have less than an 8th grade education. About half of those have less than a 6th grade one.

                          They are less healthy and responsible for the resurgence of diseases like TB in the US.

                          Virtually all illegals have been arrested one time. Most have multiple arrests. The average according to one study I read says it's 7.

                          The number of illegal kids that go to college in the US number in the thousands at most, possibly less. Their reported "success" is completely disproportional to their numbers. In Arizona, there are less than 100 currently in state universities.

                          About 60% of all illegals are male and most are between the age of 18 and 35.

                          Illegals are 70% more likely to commit a violent felony than legal immigrants or citizens.

                          Illegals go to prison at double the rate of legal immigrants and citizens.

                          Most illegals have been deported at least one time.

                          That makes them dregs in my estimation.
                          What I'm asking for is a published article or some hard facts we can discuss as a base, not things that are remembered from varied sources. This sort of information comes up time and again, so it would be served to see what the figures say.

                          Considering how many illegals are inside the nation and getting away with it, it seems that making such blanket statements are questionable without an explanation of how they obtained those numbers.

                          With the numbers available, we can make a more accurate judgement. And considering how often "obvious" data points and "common sense" is wrong, I think it best to approach things from an even point.

                          As a group, I don't think a single member here considers the flood of illegals crossing the border to be a good thing. I remember years ago learning that even the economic benefit of illegals was exaggerated a great deal, making it even more costly.

                          But if we're going to deal with a serious issue, let's do it right.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            I am for one. From various sources and reports on illegals I've read over the years:

                            Two thirds have less than an 8th grade education. About half of those have less than a 6th grade one.

                            They are less healthy and responsible for the resurgence of diseases like TB in the US.

                            Virtually all illegals have been arrested one time. Most have multiple arrests. The average according to one study I read says it's 7.

                            The number of illegal kids that go to college in the US number in the thousands at most, possibly less. Their reported "success" is completely disproportional to their numbers. In Arizona, there are less than 100 currently in state universities.

                            About 60% of all illegals are male and most are between the age of 18 and 35.

                            Illegals are 70% more likely to commit a violent felony than legal immigrants or citizens.

                            Illegals go to prison at double the rate of legal immigrants and citizens.

                            Most illegals have been deported at least one time.

                            That makes them dregs in my estimation.
                            You're quoting a huge amount of statistics with no source listed for them? I'md honestly like to know where they came from.
                            First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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