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US politics have never been so toxic? Exaggeration or accurate?

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  • US politics have never been so toxic? Exaggeration or accurate?

    US POLITICS HAVE NEVER BEEN SO TOXIC? EXAGGERATION OR ACCURATE?

    I’m very disappointed, very disappointed indeed that my thread-starter ‘Another shooting, another NRA stifled yawn’ has been locked as it was getting quite interesting.

    Can I request it be reopened and plead that personal attacks be left out?
    It would please me.

    I’m not used to not having what I want - not used at all.
    In fact it makes me feel……..well you know….. like ordinary people - and that won’t do , won’t do at all.
    So can you all be on your best behaviour. I’m sure the Gipper would want it that way.

    But enough of prologue (sometimes wonder if I should ever just get to the point quickly….but then I realise even my irrelevant preambles are far more interesting than many people’s entire lives….don’t you agree?).

    But enough nonsense.
    As explained ad-infinitum I’m developing some military history, politics and current events thematics for possible tutes in the future.
    The current state of US politics interests me greatly and I’ll definitely run with this one as it’s a perennial.

    When you think about it though, of course it is an exaggeration, as the current level of toxicity has a huge way to go to approach the levels it was running at between 1849 and 1861, in the lead-up to the Civil, War. Not to mention the war itself (war being an extension of politics as Daffy Duck once said) and it’s bitter aftermath up to 1880.
    Fair call?

    However it does appear that Politics at this time is marked by a seemingly deep running virulence and hostility with the trend worsening each year.
    An Article in the Sept edition of The Atlanyic’ Magazine called ‘The Coddling of the Aneriavn Mind. Summarises the problem almost as well as I could:

    “Republicans and Democrats have never particularly liked each other, but survey data going back to the 1970s show that on average, their mutual dislike used to be surprisingly mild. Negative feelings have grown steadily stronger, however, particularly since the early 2000s. Political scientists call this process “affective partisan polarization,” and it is a very serious problem for any democracy. As each side increasingly demonizes the other, compromise becomes more difficult. A recent study shows that implicit or unconscious biases are now at least as strong across political parties as they are across races.”

    Very hard in Australia to get an idea of where this toxicity actually comes from as nearly all legitimate analyses in the mainstream Aussie media (I don’t count ‘blogs’ or most stuff on the internet) is skewed towards blaming the US Right:
    Tea Party malcontents, angry white guys (who are portrayed as having been pissed off since 1968), libertarians (and yes they ARE right-wing), ‘I’m not a racist but’…types, gun nuts and Bible-Belt bumpkins!

    Very hard to understand what or who the ‘Right’ blames apart from everyone else- which is non-specific and doesn’t help.

    Anyway, sorry for such a long-winded OP but I need some (reasoned and considered) input on this subject

    Regards
    lodestar

  • #2
    Toxic is the norm in US politics. Read up on what the "Founding Fathers" did to each other... nasty stuff. We get burst of civility occasionally, but nasty is the norm.
    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
    “To talk of many things:
    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
    Of cabbages—and kings—
    And why the sea is boiling hot—
    And whether pigs have wings.”
    ― Lewis Carroll

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    • #3
      The simple answer is no, it's been a lot more toxic than that!
      Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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      • #4
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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        • #5
          Politics in the USA at present

          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
          Bloody hilarious!
          However back in 1800 the politics were in may ways personality focussed, as of course the party system was still evolving and stabilizing.

          Todays politics seems as much directed against 'the other side' as group not just the 'other candidate'.
          As the article in 'The Atlantic' further expands:

          "This hostility, and the self-righteousness fuelled by strong partisan emotions, can be expected to add force to any moral crusade. A principle of moral psychology is that “morality binds and blinds.” Part of what we do when we make moral judgments is express allegiance to a team. But that can interfere with our ability to think critically. Acknowledging that the other side’s viewpoint has any merit is risky—your teammates may see you as a traitor."

          The emboldened sentences sums up (sadly) the approach some posters on this forum seem to take.

          You guys (and gals!) should NOT just use the Forum to vent.

          Regards
          lodestar

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          • #6
            You want hilarious? You should look up JibJab.

            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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            • #7
              Why does the hate everything so friggin much? another threatened shu-down?

              Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              You want hilarious? You should look up JibJab.

              Yep. Could still laugh at yourselves back eleven years ago and probably still now I guess.
              What an awful mess Bush left, domestically and internationally. I'm amazed he and his actions are still supported in some quarters and the GOP still has traction despite it's '**** and Vinegar', 'Fear and Loathing' paradigm.

              Regards lodestar

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              • #8
                Oh we laugh at ourselves all the time...



                The thing is when someone attacks us we tend to join up and mess them up.

                Bottom line is don't mess with the US of A...

                Last edited by Bwaha; 12 Oct 15, 00:47.
                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • #9
                  "Toxic" doesn't even come close to describing the current state of American politics.

                  That's like describing Chernobyl as an "inconvenience".
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                    US POLITICS HAVE NEVER BEEN SO TOXIC? EXAGGERATION OR ACCURATE?
                    I don't know, there was that one time in the 1860s....
                    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                    • #11
                      Political Correctness makes everything seem more toxic.

                      And that's something in itself- the only popular thing about PC is mocking it, its always been that way. However, we see it controlling all our speech these days. and if we don't go along with it, we get heckled, harassed, censored or banned by our peers or our controllers.
                      Talk about a very successful method of psychological warfare.

                      There was a raffle going on at a local High School to fund a trip to DC, and one crank call was all it took to get it shut down.
                      Anyone can say they are offended by something, and they can shut it right down.

                      THAT is the toxic element here.
                      "Why is the Rum gone?"

                      -Captain Jack

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                      • #12
                        The ACW and now

                        Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                        I don't know, there was that one time in the 1860s....
                        lodestar's OP has covered this:
                        "When you think about it though, of course it is an exaggeration, as the current level of toxicity has a huge way to go to approach the levels it was running at between 1849 and 1861, in the lead-up to the Civil, War. Not to mention the war itself (war being an extension of politics as Daffy Duck once said) and it’s bitter aftermath up to 1880.
                        Fair call?"

                        Let's talk about the general level of toxicity and who has done most to create it.

                        For example, as lodestar has pointed out, the media commentariat in Australia largely blames the generic 'Right':
                        "Tea Party malcontents, angry white guys (who are portrayed as having been pissed off since 1968), libertarians (and yes they ARE right-wing), ‘I’m not a racist but’…types, gun nuts and Bible-Belt bumpkins!

                        I think this rather simplistic but I'm not sure who, specifically on 'the other side' deliberately generates anywhere near as much '**** and Vinegar' or as much 'Fear and Loathing' for their fellow Americans?


                        Regards lodestar

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                        • #13
                          Exaggerated but somewhat true.

                          Here's a column today by a Progressive on it:

                          http://www.arcamax.com/politics/from...bank/s-1734862

                          I won't quote from it, it's not necessary.

                          Instead, what I would point out is that the Progressive wing of the Democrats has taken control of that party. They ran wild when they had control of Congress starting with Obamacare rammed down the public's throats on a purely party-line vote. Progressives were almost giddy with excitement at being in control. Then they lost control and the Republicans took over.

                          The Democrats and their Progressive wing became obstinate obstructionists to everything the Republicans did. They even obstructed what remained of their own moderate portion of their party. Harry Reid stopped virtually everything from coming to a vote in the Senate. Nancy Pelosi refused to work with Republican leadership.

                          So, the more Conservative wing of the Republican party pushed back. They too entrenched and stopped trying to talk to the other side. Now, Progressives, like Dana Milbank, are bemoaning the loss of Progressives to get some of their agenda advanced because the Republicans have stopped giving in to them.
                          They want to claim this is all the Republican's fault. It isn't. It started with their own intransigence and spread that venom to the opposition. What galls the Progressives is that their opposition isn't supposed to simply say "NO!" and refuse to compromise, they're used to them compromising and Progressives getting some of what they want each time until they completely get what they want.

                          So, in typical Progressive fashion they label the opposition with smears, insults, and pejoratives. Conservative Republicans refusing to compromise become "Extremists" or as Milbank labels them, a "Politburo." There's some humor in that actually. The Left where Communism lives using "Politburo" a Communist term to describe a Right Wing political group.

                          Anyway, in politics extremism usually starts on the Left and is in turn met with extremism from the Right. Left to its own, the Right is too disorganized, too disparate in views, and all-too-ready to fight within its ranks to produce a solid front of extremist views that need opposing. Only the Left does that.

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                          • #14
                            Too much eagerness to wage civil war, cross the Rubicon, or encourage a Praetorian take over.

                            And for what?

                            The Civil Rights Era had more atrocities and it would have been justified, but they created change through non violence.

                            The once Golden standard of American civility is now constantly looked down upon.

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                            • #15
                              Maybe not toxic yet but plenty of waffling and dishonesty it seems to me.
                              SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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