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The Liberal view of Conservatives

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  • The Liberal view of Conservatives

    I'm placing this here because it seems that the Liberal vs Conservative debate is clearer in the U.S.

    I was reading this online book and thought it would be interesting to get some feed back on the topic.
    Conservatism

    At the other end of the political spectrum, for people with conservative ideals, accusations of human rights abuse might be useful when vilifying hostile governments, but conservative politicians in the industrialized world prefer to talk about freedom; like the freedom to compete in a free market economy, free from the restriction of any national or international regulation.

    They reject the welfare oriented viewpoint of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, instead placing their faith in the power of market forces to determine right and wrong.

    Since the early days of capitalism, conservative thinkers have believed that as long as the industrious are motivated by incentive and the poor are motivated by fear, then continued economic growth will be automatic, as if guided by some kind of invisible hand. Yet they rarely question the direction in which the hand is pushing or the reason for wanting to get there so quickly regardless of the human or environmental costs. They simply see continued development as an opportunity for profit, and they want to maximize development through unrestrained competition.

    Some conservative business leaders dream of a world without welfare, where the workers are forced to compete for the lowest possible wages while the poor are left to starve and die. After all, there is no mercy in the cut throat world of business. Competition is fierce in the international marketplace. Staying in business requires stretching the rules as far as possible to minimize expenses and maximize profits. While buyers look for the best bargains, sellers try for the highest possible price while putting the least amount of effort into their products and services.

    There may be widespread desire for ethical business practices, but it would be foolish to trust anyone in the business world. A person’s word is worthless without an ironclad contract and enough money to enforce it in a court of law. Maintaining a respectable reputation may help to attract customers, but in the end, business is business.

    Many wealthy Westerners believe that their wealth is evidence of their superiority. They carry no shame that their family fortunes were largely built upon stolen land, stolen mineral wealth, mass murder, and slavery. Whenever the desire for profit has been stronger than feelings of moral restraint, imperialist opportunists have always considered it to be good business to subjugate foreign lands and harvest their resources.

    When the European empires were finally forced to free their slave colonies, they did not free them, but instead left them suffering under the rule of egomaniac army officers. Imperialist profiteers then lent part of their ill-gotten gains to these dictators, knowing the money would be stolen and wasted.

    As the plundered nations now struggle towards democracy, imperialist loansharks like the International Monetary Fund insist on the repayment of these loans under predatory economic conditions that leave the children of these plundered nations crippled forever by debt, vulnerable to be violated forever more.

    While demanding that developing nations open their markets to unfettered foreign competition, Western governments use hostile patent laws and other indefensible forms of corporate welfare to ensure that those nations that were slow to industrialize can never catch up.

    Still the wealthy Western nations continue to cheat on international trade. Because of European rivalries and the undemocratic distribution of United States senate seats, American and European farm subsidies force down world prices and destroy the incomes of many smaller agricultural nations.

    Meanwhile, Western corporations exploit poverty stricken countries by paying slave wages to children working in factories producing luxury goods. They bribe corrupt government officials for permission to spoil the forest homelands of native people. They plunder the mineral wealth, poison the rivers with toxic waste, and harvest marine life to the point of extinction. They even fuel wars in order to profit from selling weapons. Share price is all that matters in the minds of their investors.

    While many people feel outraged by the selfishness and lack of fairness, others realize that there are no reliable foundations for such idealistic armchair moralizing. We are all merely pawns in the evolutionary competition for survival and the conscious struggle for power. Everyone must fight for their own preservation.

    As a general rule, whenever one group gains a position of power, they will almost always try to use it to further their own interests at the expense of everyone else. Other groups can try to resist, but unless they can effectively threaten those in power, then resistance is futile.

    Memories of power abuse can breed lasting hostility, and so whenever those in power actually think about the consequences of their actions, then they will usually restrain themselves out of fear of losing respect or gaining enemies. But they will still try to get away with as much as they possibly can before resistance rises to a point where the costs start to outweigh the benefits.

    Although many people dream of an ideal world based upon caring, sharing, and cooperation; such a dream world seems far from the practical world where people, companies, and nations must compete for limited resources. Claims about equality, fairness, human rights, or any other moral assertion can easily be rejected by greed-driven opportunists as ‘socialism’, which they condemn as nothing more than the selfish political expression of the jealousies and ambitions of the poor.

    http://www.evolutionary-metaphysics....rialism.html#c
    We hunt the hunters

  • #2
    There are retards on both sides.
    you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

    CPO Mzinyati

    Comment


    • #3
      Well it looks like somebody read their Marx. More of the same ignorant drivel I've seen countless times before. "Greedy conservatives hate poor people blah blah imperialism blah."
      "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
        Well it looks like somebody read their Marx. More of the same ignorant drivel I've seen countless times before. "Greedy conservatives hate poor people blah blah imperialism blah."
        Exactly. The author is attempting to convey the belief that conservative ideals are rooted in evil rather than fact. This allows him to dispense with dealing with views in opposition to his own without needing to resort to facts or logic.

        The author is defining those who think differently based on his own prejudices. His lack of understanding of the other side's point of view is fatal to his effort to explain it.
        You can't criticize that which you don't understand.
        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

        Comment


        • #5
          Since the early days of capitalism, conservative thinkers have believed...
          It fails here already - capitalism in its early days was progressive not conservative.

          Making money by trade and industry was considered the "lower" form of profit, land ownership was the traditional, conservative method.

          Taking interest (on a loan) for example, one of the of the basics of capitalism, was considered a sin in ancient times.
          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
          Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by andrewza View Post
            There are retards on both sides.
            But only a conservative recognizes that fact.
            It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself-- Th. Jefferson

            Comment


            • #7
              Reading the first paragraph, the first thing 'Liberals' accuse Conservatives of us being liberal.
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                It fails here already - capitalism in its early days was progressive not conservative.

                Making money by trade and industry was considered the "lower" form of profit, land ownership was the traditional, conservative method.

                Taking interest (on a loan) for example, one of the of the basics of capitalism, was considered a sin in ancient times.
                It is a sin and forbidden under Islamic law to this day, and based on some of America's lending practices I can see why.
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                • #9
                  I base my view of conservatives on the people I encounter on this site who self-identify as such. I keep wondering when the bottom will be reached.
                  Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Localyokel View Post
                    But only a conservative recognizes that fact.
                    Only someone who couldn't see both sides would say that.
                    First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A typical rant against the Right by the Left. Of course, there are ones that go the other way too. But, that aside, the problem with this particular rant is it ignores what would replace it.

                      In this case the Leftist is indirectly arguing for an altruistic, Socialist based society. Those have all failed miserably because humanity is anything but altruistic.

                      The result is that the only way to reach what the Left calls "Fair and Equal" is through government dictatorship. Government tries to enforce altruism on the people. The problem there is that the people aren't stupid and quickly find ways to go around government. That results in black markets, tax evasion, and a whole raft of other social ills brought on by criminal activity.
                      In the end, the Progressive utopia ends up being a failed Third World $h!+ hole. Look how quickly Venezuela or Zimbabwe collapsed when this was tried there. Eastern Europe under Soviet domination faired no better. Cuba? North Korea?

                      So while Capitalism and social and economic freedom has its ills, it is streets ahead of the alternative.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                        It fails here already - capitalism in its early days was progressive not conservative.
                        Exactly right.
                        In the old days (and much of the Victorian days in the UK) you asked the King for permission to do business, and he's give you something close to a monopoly status, and the two of you would split the profits and power in some dark room where nobody could see you dickering.

                        We call that Crony-Capitalism today, and it is killing us.


                        Some conservative business leaders dream of a world without welfare, where the workers are forced to compete for the lowest possible wages while the poor are left to starve and die. After all, there is no mercy in the cut throat world of business. Competition is fierce in the international marketplace. Staying in business requires stretching the rules as far as possible to minimize expenses and maximize profits. While buyers look for the best bargains, sellers try for the highest possible price while putting the least amount of effort into their products and services.
                        What drivel, talk about Marxist self-justification.... or a modern College sylabus.

                        Workers compete for BETTER wages, with the most productive getting the best postings. 90% of the Homeless (Bums) are drug-addicts that have already given up on themselves, so yes some will die.
                        People who can't compete always hate competition.

                        And wow, what a revelation about buyers looking for bargains and sellers trying to get more for less. Who could have imagined such a thing?
                        Not a Professor, apparently.
                        Oh the horror!
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                          Exactly right.
                          In the old days (and much of the Victorian days in the UK) you asked the King for permission to do business, and he's give you something close to a monopoly status, and the two of you would split the profits and power in some dark room where nobody could see you dickering.

                          We call that Crony-Capitalism today, and it is killing us.




                          What drivel, talk about Marxist self-justification.... or a modern College sylabus.

                          Workers compete for BETTER wages, with the most productive getting the best postings. 90% of the Homeless (Bums) are drug-addicts that have already given up on themselves, so yes some will die.
                          People who can't compete always hate competition.

                          And wow, what a revelation about buyers looking for bargains and sellers trying to get more for less. Who could have imagined such a thing?
                          Not a Professor, apparently.
                          Oh the horror!

                          Your timing on the UK is very wrong. One of the reasons for the Glorious Revolution in the UK was to free up trade. Though even before then England was by much more friendly to trade and industry than any of the other major European powers.
                          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Actually, the modern form of interest isn't the same as ancient usury was. Yes, that still exists in industries like payday loans or car title loans but in the mainstream business and banking world it is now "Time value of money."

                            The way that works is those with cash are encouraged to invest or deposit their cash in institutions like banks, corporations, or things like government bonds. In return for investing / depositing their money, those doing so expect a return (interest) on their money over time.
                            The institutions holding the money then turn around and loan that same money at interest rates somewhat higher than that the investors get to those needing money. That way those without their own funds have capital to grow businesses, purchase goods, etc., while those with money get a return on their funds. The bank, corporation, etc., gets a profit too covering their cost of doing business and making their own institution grow along the way.

                            That is a win situation for everyone involved. In the Socialist / Communist state there are no individual investors. The state holds the means of production. The whole concept of time value of money goes out the window. It reverts the economy to the Middle Ages at the earliest, Ancient times at worst. Due to the much smaller supply of capital, and the lack of return on investment, the economy stagnates and grows very slowly.
                            Worse, individuals have very little capital to purchase goods and services rendering them fewer and poorer in nature. Also, individuals now have no incentive to grow the economy or even participate in it. Yes, both systems have an expectation that people will act altruistically, but that doesn't happen in reality. Instead, people come to realize that their best interests lie in forming an alternative economy to that of the government. Hence the formation of black markets, barter, and the home business. But, these have a high cost of doing business so they remain limited alternatives to the government system.

                            Basically, Socialism and Communism fail because the whole concept behind them is seriously flawed.
                            That same flaw invades the Welfare state. Recipients of welfare, particularly generous welfare, have little or no incentive to get off it. They do have an incentive to get involved in the alternate economy where they can take government "money" and convert it into something they can spend on stuff they want that the government won't provide. Hence, they convert food stamps to tobacco, liquor, or drugs for example.
                            In many Socialist $h!+ holes, the alternate economy runs on cash from countries that is worth something rather than the worthless state money. The dollar and Euro both are common alternatives in such systems.

                            Here's the Venezuela dollar black market.

                            http://qz.com/192395/venezuelas-blac...-by-almost-40/



                            At the same time, because of the lack of investment and use of Time Value of Money, the Venezuelan government is going broke.



                            Socialism and Communism, like the heavy handed welfare state are failures economically and can't be anything else.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
                              Only someone who couldn't see both sides would say that.
                              So you admit you have retards on your side?
                              It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself-- Th. Jefferson

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