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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The quoted figure is 40x greater. You can find all of the specifics on the 'net.
    The article I cited earlier goes into far greater detail. The 40x number is the absolute maximum worst result they got. The actual results varied with driving conditions between 5 and 20X for the most part going up the 30's occasionally.
    It also varied by car model, with some doing better than others.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
      The article I cited earlier goes into far greater detail. The 40x number is the absolute maximum worst result they got. The actual results varied with driving conditions between 5 and 20X for the most part going up the 30's occasionally.
      It also varied by car model, with some doing better than others.
      That's interesting, but you were the one asking. I wasn't.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Surrey View Post
        I wouldn't be surprised if some senior VW execs don't end up in gaol over this. This is not a faulty part that a company kept quiet about. It was a deliberate attempt at fraud.
        Because of that and the spread of the deception I can see VW going down. Probably with the remains of the company being taken over by BMW and/or Mercedes.
        Nobody went to jail because GM ignition systems killed a bunch of people, and wasn't it Toyota that had all the issues with Brakes?

        If people go to prison because of this, and not because people were killed by bad cars, then it should be obvious to everyone that Human Life is just an expendable commodity to the Govt.

        VW own Porsche and Audi too, will those also be destroyed by this little coups against private enterprise?
        "Why is the Rum gone?"

        -Captain Jack

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        • #34
          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
          Nobody went to jail because GM ignition systems killed a bunch of people, and wasn't it Toyota that had all the issues with Brakes?

          If people go to prison because of this, and not because people were killed by bad cars, then it should be obvious to everyone that Human Life is just an expendable commodity to the Govt.

          VW own Porsche and Audi too, will those also be destroyed by this little coups against private enterprise?
          In both those occasions the company nvolved tried to hide its mistakes. Which was bad. But GM did not deliberately design faulty ignition systems and Toyota did not deliberately design faulty brakes.
          However the VW situation is different. It was not a mistake rather a diliberate action. It was deliberate fraud, obtaining money through deception. That is why people should go to gaol.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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          • #35
            And, the EPA closes the barn door after the cows have all gotten out... As usual...

            http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...925-story.html

            The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said Friday that it will launch sweeping changes to the way it tests for diesel emissions after getting duped by clandestine software in Volkswagen cars for seven years.

            In a letter to car manufacturers, the EPA said it will add on-road testing to its regimen, “using driving cycles and conditions that may reasonably be expected to be encountered in normal operation and use, for the purposes of investigating a potential defeat device” similar to the one used by Volkswagen.
            Like I said, the EPA by its actions created the conditions under which VW could cheat to begin with. Sloppy work on the EPA's part is as much to blame here as VW is.

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            • #36
              A very good theory I found on another forum, which fits into nikolas93TS' opinion:

              Prologue:

              In the last 25 years the global car-market grew massively - especially due the emerging countries' markets. But nearly everyone struggled to get big profits - due customers' discount-demands and stiff competition and ever-growing regulation in crash-safety/emissions. Profit-margin are down and R&D costs are up.

              On the low-end noname Indian/Chinese brands are eating up the micro, sub-compact and compact profits in those very important growing markets.

              In the satured markets the working-class / middle-class is shrinking and either goes straight for budget brands like Hyundai-Kia, Dacia, SEAT, Skoda or continues to drive older cars or only buy used cars or ponies up an entry model of the premium-brands.

              This leaves the average brands like VW, GM (Opel/Vauxhall, Chevrolet), Ford and FCA (Chrysler, Fiat, Lancia, Alfa-Romeo) in a very dangerous situation.
              Saab, Rover were the first victims of the culling of the herd. Ford & GM also retired many sub-brands.

              On the horizont there are dangers in form of innovative brands like Tesla or potential up-market movement by Chinese, Indian brands.

              Even small economies like Vietnam have now their own commercial-vehicle brands, which eats into the very profitable fleet-sales of vans, small trucks and buses.

              The rumors, that Google and Apple are soon going into the market, are very dangerous due those companies' extremely large war-chest.

              Furthermore the comeback of Volvo and JLR (Jaguar Land Rover) shows that a financial injection of 3 - 8 billion USD by investors can bring zombies back to life. Those two re-vitalized brand are focusing on the Chinese & US market - JLR Range Rovers have taken alot of customers from Caddilac, which currently on lives from the "Escalade" SUV.

              Intro:

              The premium segment on the other hand delivered steady fat profits & taxes, despite the fact that many premium-cars share plattform, engine and drivetrain with standard-cars. The German quadruplets (BMW, MB, Audi and Porsche) and their associated premium brands (RR, Bentley and Lamborghini) sucked in more or less all the profits from premium-cars/sport-cars.

              The premium segment lives only on reputation/prestige and the majority of the customers buy them for that reputation/prestige.

              The German brands (not only car-brands, but also other industrial branches) live from German honesty/engineering-prowess and positive national image.

              Volkswagen is the foundation for Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bentley. The plattforms developed for VW cars are also used by the premium sister-brand: VW Golf -> Audi A3, VW Tuaregg - > Audi Q7/Porsche Cayenne/Bentley Bentagya. This enable them to get high profit-margins.

              VW's cheaper/budget brands Skoda & SEAT also profit from that fact that you get a German car/tech with reasonable Czech/Spanish prices. This is very important in Eastern Europe, SA and India.

              Side-plot:

              For years Berlin got the premium cars' taxes and not Washington, Rome or Tokio. Germany's car-factory-workers enjoyed the bonus-paychecks, while Italian/American workers were worried.

              With only Opel/Vauxhall, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, the struggling French triplets and FCA many European suppliers and with them many smaller towns in Western Europe would struggle to survive.

              The VW Group gives those suppliers the needed scale and many small West-German towns live from the steady tax-renevues.

              Already Wolfsburg, Emden, Brunswick and Salzgitter all started to revise their budget-planning. For many small towns in Germany the combination of Dieselgate & migrant-crisis could lead to bankruptcy probably in the 2/3 years.

              The Villians:

              GM's Europe division Opel/Vauxhall is still recovering from their early 1990s self-inflicted reputation-crisis. In the last 5 years Opel/Vauxhall have made good products and is now in attack mode against VW Group's budget/average brands. Opel/Vauxhall's plattforms are also used by Buick in China and Chevrolet in NA.

              GM knows NA-style pickups are very profitable, but not on a global scale. Opel/Vauxhall's Astra is THE key-product & plattform. The new Astra generation is now arriving here in Europe.

              GM's premium brand Caddillac is planning to completely revamp their image & product-range and plans to go global. They are already scouting dealership and potential show-room all alover Europe & China. They have already shown their new full-size sedan CT6, which will compete with the very succesful Audi A8, MB S-Class and BMW Series 7.

              Their entry-crossover XT5 will be competing in that fastest-growing segment.

              Audi's reputation/prestige is now severely damaged and critically Audi nearly delivers 50% of VW Group's general profits.

              Meanwhile Ford's Europe division got a beating in the last 20 years from VW Group. Skoda took the lower-income customers in Western Europe, while people, who might have brought Fords with the highest trim-level, went for the entry models of Audi.

              Ford's profitabilty now hangs on the F-150 pickup, but it isn't a global product. The avialability of Mustang overseas will only satify the limited appeal of American Muscle, but won't raise the company's overall finances.

              So just like GM Ford bets on Lincoln to grab the premium-money in China & NA. So far Lincoln only showed on revamped model, but more will follow.

              The Gadgets:

              It is a well known open secret, that the mileage-test in NA & Europe are not realistic. The rumors that diesel-powered cars are pushing out more emission is not only restricted to VW alone but all manufacturers.

              Diesel play a small role in NA, but the German triplets has been very succesful in selling fleets of "clean" diesel-powered sedans here in Europe - daily economy with prestige.

              This combination of clean diesel-economy with prestige prevented so far Lexus any chance from getting a visible market-share in Europe.

              Jaguar's comeback also rest on its' new Ingenium engine's 180hp diesel variant, which is avialable across the product range. Same goes for Volvo future planning.
              Both JLR & Volvo also planned to bring their small diesels globally to appeal to cost-consious buyers of premium cars.

              Hyundai-Kia's success here in Europe also came due competitive 1.6 diesel engine and they are moving up-market - cutting into Ford Europe & Opel/Vauxhall.

              Neither Ford or GM have high-performance diesel engines, which could be used in the larger premium-cars and their smaller diesel-engines are too weak to power the upscale sedans/SUVs.

              The Climax:

              Companies check out their competitors' product all the time!
              They also buy from the same suppliers!
              All manufacturer optimize for the governmental test!

              The VW Group has sold nearly 15 miilions cars with the cheating software for years and none of their competitors found it out?

              Give me a break!

              Who is going to benefit most from VW Group's destroyed reputation of small diesel engine? VW Group's Golf (Skoda Octavia, SEAT Leon) is the cash-cow for VW and losing it to GM's Astra could endager the whole VW Group.

              Who is going to benefit most from German triplets' damaged reputation of diesel-fueled premium sedans?

              Who could lose even more market-share to re-vitalized & agressively expanding Volvo & JLR?

              Which country has burgeoning car-market, but endangered traditional car-producer?

              Which country has got the most innovative electric automotive systems developer?

              Epilogue:

              It would be interesting to follow the career-paths of US officials & experts, who lead the efforts in the Dieselgate.

              New rich Asian customers are very afraid of losing face and love to state that they can afford "untainted"/prestige goods like German sedan/SUVs. Now the Germans are tainted...

              Why does Dieselgate comes at a time of T-TIP FTA negotiations and Germany's complete focus on the migrant-crisis and recusant attitude to escalate in the Ukrainian Civil War?

              Who is afraid of the Russophile ring-wing parties gaining more ground in Germany - the leading nation in EU?
              Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying culture. Aristotle

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              • #37
                So, VW are really the victims of their own software that tried to cheat the system! I get it now. It was GM, Ford, Toyota, the Chinese, the Indians, etc. etc. that were the real problem. VW was just minding their own business and were systematically attacked by everybody else in the world, using VW's own software they put in their own cars to cheat the system. Got it.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  What was incompetence was the design of the tests. Since the test was static and the conditions known VW could program the computer in the car to trick the test. A test that measured actual emissions or one that measured them while the vehicle was operating would have been impossible to beat. Tricking a computer output was simple.

                  I've seen gas stations busted for the same thing. They know how the state tests for accuracy of delivery of fuel and add a chip that delivers the correct and accurate amount at the test quantities. Buy any other quantity and you end up paying more for your fuel than the list price.

                  It's the government agency that set up a rigid unrealistic test, most likely for convenience of their employees or to keep costs down, and then expected people to meekly comply with their rules. Problem is somebody comes along and finds a way to cheat the test and make more money. So, they do it.
                  Maybe so, but the fact remains that VW took people's money for cars that they knew couldn't pass emissions standards. Just because a bank has sloppy security doesn't mean it's okay to rob them...some responsibility still rests with the guys who robbed the bank. Other car-makers managed to pass the EPA tests without cheating and bore the costs of building cars that could do it and still be in the ballpark as far as competing with the VWs for performance and mileage etc. VW just basically said screw it, we'll just build cars that don't operate within emissions standards and just tell people they do and make a fortune. They didn't victimize the EPA they victimized the millions of people who paid for their cars in the false belief that they were legitimately within standards. They took money for cars they knew didn't comply with those standards and their customers drove around spewing pollutants out their tailpipes while believing they were relatively clean. It's criminal and I have little doubt people will end up in jail for it. Not saying the EPA is the greatest organization in the world but I don't think you can blame them for VW cheating the system.

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                  • #39
                    The buyers aren't being "robbed" as you suggest... At least if they didn't specifically purchase the vehicle for its emissions qualities which I would doubt.
                    I don't think that a car buyer is particularly concerned with the level of emissions the vehicle produces other than it passes whatever testing is required to keep it on the road.

                    I suppose there is some miniscule faction of buyers that does give a $h!+ about emissions, but I'd postulate that 99% don't give a rat's patoot about them and even are annoyed that they are forced to haul their vehicle to some testing station and pay for that testing as part of ownership.

                    So, I'd reiterate, this is mainly if not entirely between VW and the EPA and it was the EPA's sloppy procedures that allowed it to happen at all.

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                    • #40
                      I wouldn't think that anybody really pays attention to the emissions numbers either, or at least very few people would as you said. The problem is that they get a certain amount of performance out of that motor, which compares favorably with the competition and which I do think people pay attention to. They get HP, torque, mileage, zero to 60 time, etc that most definitely appeal to a lot of buyers, and when they are deciding what car to buy these numbers can be the deciding factor. VW didn't arrive at those performance numbers fairly...people don't look at emissions but at least when you buy a new car you assume the emissions are within legal limits. I don't know anyone who'd bother checking either, but everyone I know would be surprised to find out their new or relatively new car is above or way above legal emissions standards, and for those who must get smog checks to register their cars this could cause a lot of problems. I'm not sure why anyone would be in VW's corner on this deal, when they admitted they cheated the system.
                      As I mentioned before I'm not a fan of the EPA, I believe in free enterprise, and I wouldn't normally be too critical of a company that just tried hard to compete but in this case they misrepresented their product as being something it was not, and if I was a buyer of one of these cars I would drive it to the VW dealer and ask for all my money back so I could go buy a car that actually works as advertised and is legal. The system is not at fault here VW is and their victims are the people who in good faith paid for their cars and now must deal with the coming problems...devalued cars they can't sell in a lot of areas anyway, taking cars in for extensive recall work, possibly degraded performance, etc that are sure to come thanks to VW's disregard for fair practices and the law. They can use their smoke-billowing VWs to run down tree huggers for all I care but I don't appreciate their total disregard for the same laws everyone else was trying to comply with.

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                      • #41
                        I'm not in VW's corner here. VW cheated and got caught. They should pay full price for their wrong doing.

                        But, the EPA is culpable here too. They set up a system that was easily cheated on. If from the start they had made the testing realistic instead of totally computer based modelling, the problem wouldn't have occurred. You can't easily cheat actual measurements versus a computer model (sound familiar? Same issue with Gorebal Warming... )

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                          Nobody went to jail because GM ignition systems killed a bunch of people, and wasn't it Toyota that had all the issues with Brakes?

                          If people go to prison because of this, and not because people were killed by bad cars, then it should be obvious to everyone that Human Life is just an expendable commodity to the Govt.

                          VW own Porsche and Audi too, will those also be destroyed by this little coups against private enterprise?
                          The biggest threat to VW will probably be from the German government, which won;t take kindly to such an overt threat to their foreign market and will likely imprison a few senior VW people.

                          Obama will very carefully do nothing at all - his usual operating mode - beyond possibly make a speech heavily slanted towards environmental pollution and global warming...as usual. He would make the same speech at a funeral.


                          He won't push for closure of VW plants in America because those are union Democrat jobs and votes, so what's left?
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            The buyers aren't being "robbed" as you suggest... At least if they didn't specifically purchase the vehicle for its emissions qualities which I would doubt.
                            I don't think that a car buyer is particularly concerned with the level of emissions the vehicle produces other than it passes whatever testing is required to keep it on the road.

                            I suppose there is some miniscule faction of buyers that does give a $h!+ about emissions, but I'd postulate that 99% don't give a rat's patoot about them and even are annoyed that they are forced to haul their vehicle to some testing station and pay for that testing as part of ownership.

                            So, I'd reiterate, this is mainly if not entirely between VW and the EPA and it was the EPA's sloppy procedures that allowed it to happen at all.

                            Certain Volkswagen models were considered eligible for a $1,300 tax credit under the Energy Policy Act of 2005. There were 60,000 VW vehicles with this issue sold in the US, and if all the buyers applied for the tax credit, IRS could have paid out $50 million in undeserved tax credits. Therefore, the low emission claim were most likely a contributing factor in the sales.
                            "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                            "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                              Certain Volkswagen models were considered eligible for a $1,300 tax credit under the Energy Policy Act of 2005. There were 60,000 VW vehicles with this issue sold in the US, and if all the buyers applied for the tax credit, IRS could have paid out $50 million in undeserved tax credits. Therefore, the low emission claim were most likely a contributing factor in the sales.
                              That is just more incentive for VW to cheat. Home solar power companies are doing the same thing now because of very lucrative government rebates and tax incentives.

                              I still see the government's actions as a big part of the problem.

                              Comment

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