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  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    My only disagreement is that the officers should be held personally libel for some portion of the damages. Making them take personal responsibility for bad judgement is no different than if they were involved in an auto accident with their personal vehicle. Sure, their agency shares a portion of the blame but they were on the scene and didn't need to act the way they did in order to determine the situation.
    I would agree on principle but the reality is that juries almost always vote against the deep pockets of corporations and government agencies regardless of the facts in a case. Individual employees could get caught up in guilt by association. I would prefer criminal negligence charges where the burden of proof is stricter.

    Unfortunately what we have seen in both criminal and civil cases is that the plaintiff often lacks the legal resources to pursue justice when the accused has unlimited financial resources.

    I don't have an answer but I'm not happy with the way juries function in this country. Legal fees also pervert the system, any ideas?

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
    Complete rubbish and an example of class hatred. If a citizen sees something that they believe is suspicious they should always call the police. It is up to the police to judge the situation and react accordingly.

    On the killing of the dog, I remember a poster saying a few years ago that it was standard procedure to shoot a dog that was not secure when they enter a house.

    Hope the victim takes the authorities to the cleaners but much more importantly the officers involved should be disiplined and dismissed from the force.

    On the plus side so far there doesn't seem to be a cover up.
    My only disagreement is that the officers should be held personally libel for some portion of the damages. Making them take personal responsibility for bad judgement is no different than if they were involved in an auto accident with their personal vehicle. Sure, their agency shares a portion of the blame but they were on the scene and didn't need to act the way they did in order to determine the situation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Surrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
    While the cops deserve their share piece of the blame in this instance, I think we have to remember that in this instance and other incidents like it that the 911 callers are to blame too.

    Their is this kind of middle-class paranoia in North America. It leads people to believe that thugs, thieves, crazies, and pedophiles are lurking in their otherwise safe neighbourhoods. Anything or anyone that appears a tiny bit 'fishy' to them is enough reason to call the cops.

    The 911 dispatcher and police can not ignore any call and must rely on what these paranoid citizens tell them. This sometimes leads to overuse of force. This burglar incident reminds of the Alabama beating of that elderly Indian man.
    Complete rubbish and an example of class hatred. If a citizen sees something that they believe is suspicious they should always call the police. It is up to the police to judge the situation and react accordingly.

    On the killing of the dog, I remember a poster saying a few years ago that it was standard procedure to shoot a dog that was not secure when they enter a house.

    Hope the victim takes the authorities to the cleaners but much more importantly the officers involved should be disiplined and dismissed from the force.

    On the plus side so far there doesn't seem to be a cover up.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Thanks for responding TAG your post will make a nice reference for future discussions. I suppose we should all add this kind of thing to our profiles so people don't have to guess where we are coming from. Especially new members may have a hard time following a conversation without knowing anything about a poster.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    Water security
    Food security
    National defense
    Economic stability
    Infrastructure
    Public Health FDA, CDC, etc.
    Safety Fire and Police
    Environment
    Education
    Research
    Let me start with your list:

    Water security. Limited to large scale lakes, rivers, and reservoirs along with ground water rights. It has next to no business being the sole distributor. I would add making reasonable regulations on quality subject to realistic outside and public review (eg., many of the EPA's current water standards are too strict and need revision because they are likely based on BS claims they made up).


    Food security: Only to the degree of setting standards like above. Heavily subject to outside and public review.

    National defense: Agreed.

    Economic stability: Only in setting monetary policy in terms of the federal reserve. It has zero responsibility to conduct Statist Capitalism like it currently does.

    Infrastructure: Only on the largest scale.

    Public Health FDA, CDC, etc. Limited to policy positions and regulation again subject to heavy outside and public review. What I mean is that government should never, ever, be allowed to make regulation without independent review, complete transparency, and Congressional and other oversight. No agency of the government should be given authority to write regulations or rules without being subject to control by the public, Congress, or other outside bodies to that agency. It prevents empire building and "do gooding" by bureaucrats.


    Safety Fire and Police: Maybe. Both can be handled by private companies by subscription just as easily for more needs.

    Environment: Only with very heavy public and outside review. The EPA is one of the most egregious violators of public trust today there is.

    Education: Nope. No need for government here beyond possibly requiring everyone to complete a minimum level of education.


    Research: Only as it applies to government and the needs of government. Now, a couple of areas where government has a role in this: Patents. Provides protection for intellectual rights. Acting as a clearing house / repository of collected research. That is, government has bodies that collect and house research and knowledge (like libraries) to make it available to the public at large.
    It has next to no role conducting research wholesale on a near infinite range of stuff much of which doesn't have anything to do with government.

    I would also add, that all of this needs to be limited to the lowest level of government possible. From your list:

    Water security: Limited federal, primarily state and local
    Food security: Limited federal, primarily state and local
    National defense: Shared federal and state.
    Economic stability: Federal for money supply, state and local otherwise.
    Infrastructure: Any level depending on scope of project.
    Public Health FDA, CDC, etc.: Limited federal primarily state
    Safety Fire and Police: Limited federal and state, primarily local.
    Environment: shared federal and state.
    Education: limited state, primarily local if government is involved.
    Research: Any level limited to government needs.

    A few to be discarded:

    Housing and urban development. This is a state and local issue having nothing to do with the federal government. It also should be limited to zoning and building code issues. The government really has no business in mass "urban planning." History shows they really suck at it.

    Federal control of commerce: Limited to truly "interstate" commerce. That means no control over manufacture of something in state A regardless of where raw materials may come from.

    Firearms control: Primarily a state and local responsibility rather than federal. Abolish the ATF for example.

    Make the federal government sell off most of its raw land holdings. The government has no need to control masses of land (Nevada is about 95% federal land that lies fallow) with no real purpose in mind. Put that land to productive use.

    Make creation of national parks, monuments, etc., a joint action between Congress, President, and the state(s) involved. No more unilateral action by the President.

    In fact, make unilateral action by the President on domestic matters all but impossible to do, and even when taken they are considered temporary and subject to review and approval by Congress and "the people." That is, executive orders are a temporary measure for situations like the war powers act is.

    Licensing is another area I have issues with. This is an area where local and state governments are getting out of control. For most business endeavors one license to operate should be sufficient. There is no real need to license many trades that are now required to have one. A few examples of mostly useless licenses:

    Barbers / beauticians: You get a bad haircut? Don't go back.
    Lawyers: What? They'll do your paperwork wrong?
    Trades: Hire on their reputation and demonstrated ability not that they passed some useless test.

    Ones needing some licensing:

    Health care providers like doctors / dentists: Incompetence could be very costly to a patient. Not to include many lower skill level people in these areas. I don't think you need an associate's degree to draw blood samples or give a shot to someone if there is a supervising doctor you work for. They are taking the liability for your work.

    Civil engineers and architects: Their designs are to be used by the public so they should have to meet standards for their work to ensure buildings are safely designed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sergio
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    It's the major part of that statement that troubles me. Why wouldn't it be acceptable to say police acting like this is a problem. The major problem is our inability to prioritize our focus as a society.

    Where does police incompetence fit in our priorities? I would like you despite the risk of going off topic to provide me with a list of problems the government should deal with so I can understand your positions better.

    Lets do a little mind game and I will go first. No need to get too intellectual about it just off the top of your head and there are no good or bad lists.

    10 Government activities in order of priorities

    Water security
    Food security
    National defense
    Economic stability
    Infrastructure
    Public Health FDA, CDC, etc.
    Safety Fire and Police
    Environment
    Education
    Research
    It is possible to be concerned by more than one thing at a time.

    Leave a comment:


  • slick_miester
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
    I'll go along with the Devils advocate here and say that with so little to go on, they should have just patrolled the area and look for suspicious activity instead of entering the wrong house, seeing how they only had a description of the house and no street address.
    This is such flimsy evidence it is no evidence at all!
    There's been worse: search warrants based on accounts provided by lone confidential paid informants. Very common in the '80s and '90s with the War on Drugs. My favorite took place in Boston MA: based on dope from a single CI, cops executed a "dynamic entry," with flash-bangs and the whole schmear, at oh-dark-thirty. Turned out they'd burst into an apartment inhabited by an old retired minister and his wife. Upon bursting into their bedroom with masks on, flashlights beaming, and weapons leveled, the old geezer up and had a heart attack. Dead. Subsequent IA investigation learned that the CI gave the wrong apartment number: the real target was one flight down.

    Leave a comment:


  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
    Of course, the cops were overzealous in this situation and deserve punishment. I mean from the articles it appears that they shot the dog for simply startling them! But playing Devil's advocate here the information that the caller gave was not much to go on.
    I'll go along with the Devils advocate here and say that with so little to go on, they should have just patrolled the area and look for suspicious activity instead of entering the wrong house, seeing how they only had a description of the house and no street address.
    This is such flimsy evidence it is no evidence at all!

    Leave a comment:


  • phil74501
    replied
    Originally posted by Hanov View Post
    US police is obviously not very professional.
    I don't think that this is true for the whole US police force but there are obviously to many morons or badly trained officers serving. The trigger happiness is unbelievable. Sure, there may be reasons for that (everyone carrying a gun) but when reading such articles i get the feeling that many US policemen are unable to calculate risks. I mean they looked for an alleged burgler. They did not know which house. So lets just enter that one here and shoot everyone...

    Actually i have to control myself laughing. Poor man. Poor dog.
    At least the officer was shot by a moron colleague. How can this happen when you are looking for an alleged burgler?
    There's way too many trigger happy cops these days. And no, I'm not saying all or even a majority are. We had an episode here, about 10 years ago, where one officer shot another officer...during a training exercise. Fortunately the shot officer lived, but is now partially paralyzed below the waist. The other officer is, or was last I heard, still on the force.

    Leave a comment:


  • phil74501
    replied
    Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
    Fieger and the rest of his fellow "Leaches" are racing down there to file that massive lawsuit.
    A point of trivia, for those who may not know. His younger brother, Doug, was the lead singer for the group The Knack.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Another automatic multi-million dollar payout of the taxpayers money to cover up another official screw-up.

    Want to stop this sort of thing? Take it out of the officers salaries, right up to the Chief of Police and the Mayor.

    And people still wonder why no one seems to trust police anymore?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hanov
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    It's the major part of that statement that troubles me. Why wouldn't it be acceptable to say police acting like this is a problem. The major problem is our inability to prioritize our focus as a society.

    Where does police incompetence fit in our priorities? I would like you despite the risk of going off topic to provide me with a list of problems the government should deal with so I can understand your positions better.

    Lets do a little mind game and I will go first. No need to get too intellectual about it just off the top of your head and there are no good or bad lists.

    10 Government activities in order of priorities

    Water security
    Food security
    National defense
    Economic stability
    Infrastructure
    Public Health FDA, CDC, etc.
    Safety Fire and Police
    Environment
    Education
    Research
    This is about Police that don't know their business. Sure, water and food etc, are more essential, but we are talking about police here.
    The training level, the professionalism of the police is a major problem. Sure, accidents happen, but if they happen on aregular basis it is a problem. And police is very important. It's a link between citizens and government. It's about trust.

    It's a budget problem. No money, no training. Like Arnold J Rimmer once analysed (another thread on police) - the main problem is that they save money. Lesser training or cutting the two men patrol to a one man patrol etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hanov
    replied
    Originally posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
    While the cops deserve their share piece of the blame in this instance, I think we have to remember that in this instance and other incidents like it that the 911 callers are to blame too.
    What? Are you serious?
    Sure, the caller was an idiot. But we are talking about police here. They should know that every idiot or any demented person may dial 911 and tell anything. Having no address and going into a house that fits the description of an anonymous caller and shooting guys?

    This is solely a police problem. But i agree with the paranoia part...

    Leave a comment:


  • Hanov
    replied
    Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
    Police show up at wrong address - shoot homeowner, his dog and another police officer by mistake.
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inv...ers/ar-AAdOB7J
    US police is obviously not very professional.
    I don't think that this is true for the whole US police force but there are obviously to many morons or badly trained officers serving. The trigger happiness is unbelievable. Sure, there may be reasons for that (everyone carrying a gun) but when reading such articles i get the feeling that many US policemen are unable to calculate risks. I mean they looked for an alleged burgler. They did not know which house. So lets just enter that one here and shoot everyone...

    Actually i have to control myself laughing. Poor man. Poor dog.
    At least the officer was shot by a moron colleague. How can this happen when you are looking for an alleged burgler?

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Although it was 2004, this sort of BS by police is nothing new.

    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/...ernoon-6438729

    This is in Ahwatukee, a Phoenix suburb.

    The Sheriff's office used a no knock warrant service to arrest a guy for two outstanding traffic tickets. They burned his house down, killed his dog, wrongfully arrested and held his girlfriend and her daughter, destroyed a neighbor's car with their armored car they brought, and ended up giving this guy several wheelbarrows full of money so to speak.

    Police acting like this is a major problem.
    It's the major part of that statement that troubles me. Why wouldn't it be acceptable to say police acting like this is a problem. The major problem is our inability to prioritize our focus as a society.

    Where does police incompetence fit in our priorities? I would like you despite the risk of going off topic to provide me with a list of problems the government should deal with so I can understand your positions better.

    Lets do a little mind game and I will go first. No need to get too intellectual about it just off the top of your head and there are no good or bad lists.

    10 Government activities in order of priorities

    Water security
    Food security
    National defense
    Economic stability
    Infrastructure
    Public Health FDA, CDC, etc.
    Safety Fire and Police
    Environment
    Education
    Research

    Leave a comment:

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