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  • Whoa! Check this out before posting...

    .... anything Politcal.

    The Death of Reason: Why People Don't Listen to Reason and Evidence
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6PoILa4BDg


    I'm not saying anything about the content, yet, but just take a look. It might be a better use of 24 minutes for frequent posters here.
    Last edited by The Exorcist; 27 Aug 15, 17:45.

  • #2
    Sorry...can't spare 24 minutes at this time of day. Can you give us the Reader's Digest version?
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting guy and pleasant to watch. When he was talking about tribalism I was a little disappointed that he didn't mention the need for the same kind of high fidelity of transmission in culture that is required in genomes. While religious belief may represent the kind on unfalsifiable and self reinforcing delusions that he suggest legends and myth also provide a immutable and thus stable environment exactly because they are unfalsifiable. Empirical data and rationality is necessarily falsifiable and highly mutable as new information about reality is acquired and it is not in many ways suitable as a social skeleton. Something like human rights that reinforces the emotional as well as rational needs of a society may provide that skeleton but they still must have the unfalsifiable attribute to prevent undesirable mutation.

      As a moral philosopher he must be aware that successful culturea are dependant on a moral population. Morality for a philosopher is not I would think equatable to the kind or morality theologians teach but rather more about social unity and stability. For example the elimination of cheaters in what ever game of life the society has constructed.

      I watched some additional videos he produced and he is quite hostile to socialism and government control in general. I'm actually open to this kind of thinking as I do not equate liberalism with socialism. Again however the government that governs least governs best is dependant on having a moral population to govern. His basic theme seems to be if we raise children in a non violent and honest environment we will produce a moral population. He fails to address however how honest hard working and responsible children will be protected from the unavoidable cheaters.

      Good moral codes are abundant the key however is enforcement and participation. One need only compare the constitution of the Soviet Union with the reality of living in that society to see that a code of conduct is only as good as the morality of authority. Someday perhaps authority will be unneeded but we are not there now.

      If a message of peace and love and respect for all people were enough to make for a great society then Christianity would not have been cooped by the self serving and authoritarian institutions and belief systems that currently represent it's philosophy. These kind of belief system may not be falsifiable and thus appear hostile to rationality but the main problems arises from mutations. They are in fact very subject to rationalization if not reason and empiricism.
      Last edited by wolfhnd; 28 Aug 15, 02:58.
      We hunt the hunters

      Comment


      • #4
        People will wonder why I didn't put this in science, but its more about philosophy/science/politics so here it is.

        He does start off a little slow, but he certainly covers some new ground in a concise way.

        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        Interesting guy and pleasant to watch. When he was talking about tribalism I was a little disappointed that he didn't mention the need for the same kind of high fidelity of transmission in culture that is required in genomes. While religious belief may represent the kind on unfalsifiable and self reinforcing delusions that he suggest legends and myth also provide a immutable and thus stable environment exactly because they are unfalsifiable. Empirical data and rationality is necessarily falsifiable and highly mutable as new information about reality is acquired and it is not in many ways suitable as a social skeleton. Something like human rights that reinforces the emotional as well as rational needs of a society may provide that skeleton but they still must have the unfalsifiable attribute to prevent undesirable mutation.
        I know it, and there lies the problem... HOW?
        Reality IS reality, and sooner or later it will assert itself. The issue is, will be be the stunned survivors of a post-apocalypse world who are the first to realize what reality is? That's the stereotypical expectation for the future... which in itself makes that exact thing unlikely. And a 1984 type of world can only delay a collapse while making the fall all the worse when it finally comes.
        And that's off topic anyway... damn.


        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        As a moral philosopher he must be aware that successful culturea are dependant on a moral population. Morality for a philosopher is not I would think equatable to the kind or morality theologians teach but rather more about social unity and stability. For example the elimination of cheaters in what ever game of life the society has constructed.
        Also true, but how to do that in a Society controlled by cheaters? Morality is held to be a punchline, even by the very people who try to enforce their own version of morality, they just call it being PC.

        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        I watched some additional videos he produced and he is quite hostile to socialism and government control in general. I'm actually open to this kind of thinking as I do not equate liberalism with socialism. Again however the government that governs least governs best is dependant on having a moral population to govern. His basic theme seems to be if we raise children in a non violent and honest environment we will produce a moral population. He fails to address however how honest hard working and responsible children will be protected from the unavoidable cheaters.
        By stigmatizing the cheaters perhaps. Of maybe we should just stop lying to children. THAT is something that has always bothered me, adults lie to Children CONSTANTLY, because its easy and most people like to take the easy way out. And also because adults are so incredibly stupid and short-sighted that they never seem to recall how upset they were as kids when they found out about all the lies... or maybe its just an unconscious and sick desire to pass the misery onwards.
        Changing that, the deliberate lies and short-cuts in child-rearing, could go a long way to helping that issue. IMHO, making lies more rare will make the remaining lies stand out more clearly.

        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        moral codes are abundant the key however is enforcement and participation. One need only compare the constitution of the Soviet Union with the reality of living in that society to see that a code of conduct is only as good as the morality of authority. Someday perhaps authority will be unneeded but we are not there now.
        THe more people we have, the more authority we need just to protect us from people who can't deal with the ever-increasing stress brought about my more people.
        Horrible as it may be, the euthanasia cults (closely related to Gang Green, if not a disguise for them) may have a point. Not about the carrying capacity of the planet itself, but in people's emotional ability to deal with always being surrounded by seething masses of more & more people.

        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        If a message of peace and love and respect for all people were enough to make for a great society then Christianity would not have been cooped by the self serving and authoritarian institutions and belief systems that currently represent it's philosophy. These kind of belief system may not be falsifiable and thus appear hostile to rationality but the main problems arises from mutations. They are in fact very subject to rationalization if not reason and empiricism.
        There is also the notion that conflict is the driving force behind innovation and progress, but I think a lot of our problems have come from overly rapid progress materially without sufficient progress mentally... see the Plank idea.
        I would settle for a society that isn't constantly at war with itself, even a small one, but when has that ever happened?

        I think that if I had existed at any time greater than about 100 years ago, I would have been a Liberal myself, and a pretty loud one. Does that mean my brain would have been a different shape? I know that's not what this guy was driving at when he talked about that, but it makes me wonder.

        The biggest thing I got out of this was a reminder backed by solid reasoning that indulging in the sort of Political ranting thinly disguised as debates that we have right here is pretty much the same thing as feeding a Drug Habit. I have left this part of the site many times, sometimes loudly as a way to remind myself to stay away for a little longer this time, and so on.
        I used to think I kept coming back here to fight the lies, but now I think it was to vent and get that little rush he's talking about. Not a very healthy thing, is it?

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        • #5
          I will try and comment again when I have thought over what you wrote.
          We hunt the hunters

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          • #6
            Interesting points he makes, however I get this terrible (for me, anyways) sense of incipient navel-gazing midway through.
            In any event, more pondering required when I've processed some more of what he's talking about.

            The biggest thing I got out of this was a reminder backed by solid reasoning that indulging in the sort of Political ranting thinly disguised as debates that we have right here is pretty much the same thing as feeding a Drug Habit. I have left this part of the site many times, sometimes loudly as a way to remind myself to stay away for a little longer this time, and so on.
            I used to think I kept coming back here to fight the lies, but now I think it was to vent and get that little rush he's talking about. Not a very healthy thing, is it?
            Definitely have the same experience, but also think it goes both ways. If one comes here to have a good time with fellow right-thinking people of the same persuasion, that's also a form of emotional feedback, isn't it? One can be encouraged that one's opinion is the right track, the opposition are idiots and get that endorphin hit. It especially is the case when sometimes people try to make a big point and hammer down someone/opinion they object to which serves to up the ante, so to speak. That's why trolling can be such "fun" to some. Add the mix of relative interwebs anonymity which makes it all so uninhibited and we get what we get.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
              I will try and comment again when I have thought over what you wrote.
              Originally posted by boomer400 View Post
              ...
              In any event, more pondering required when I've processed some more of what he's talking about.
              No problem, I'll be back. And the fact that you want to think about it too only makes me more sure I found something good here.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                I watched some additional videos he produced and he is quite hostile to socialism and government control in general. I'm actually open to this kind of thinking as I do not equate liberalism with socialism. Again however the government that governs least governs best is dependant on having a moral population to govern. His basic theme seems to be if we raise children in a non violent and honest environment we will produce a moral population. He fails to address however how honest hard working and responsible children will be protected from the unavoidable cheaters.
                Traditional liberalism of the sort that influenced those who founded the United States isn't associated with Socialism. Liberalism of the sort that is found on the Left and today called Progressivism (due to their having made the word "Liberal" into a pejorative) is.

                He's half right on the environment thing. What you need in addition is a common culture that is shared by society. That is, common language, values, traditions, social activities, etc.
                When a society lacks these things, even despises them as happens with multiculturalism, you end up with a society in moral decay. Multiculturalism does the exact opposite of the above. It advocates retention of one's own unique language, values, social activities, traditions, etc. Sure, it pays lip service by asking you to respect other's choices, but that does nothing to mend the disintegration of social fabric in a society that multiculturalism promotes.


                Good moral codes are abundant the key however is enforcement and participation. One need only compare the constitution of the Soviet Union with the reality of living in that society to see that a code of conduct is only as good as the morality of authority. Someday perhaps authority will be unneeded but we are not there now.
                A traditional place most societies got their moral code from wasn't government, but rather religion. Governments don't practice or teach morals, they practice and teach law. Put another way, they tell you what is right and wrong but don't tell you why it is. Morals teach you why something is right or wrong.
                The result is that strong government with weak social practices and little depth or tradition, results in an immoral society governed largely by what one can get away with.

                If a message of peace and love and respect for all people were enough to make for a great society then Christianity would not have been cooped by the self serving and authoritarian institutions and belief systems that currently represent it's philosophy. These kind of belief system may not be falsifiable and thus appear hostile to rationality but the main problems arises from mutations. They are in fact very subject to rationalization if not reason and empiricism.
                It isn't the message but rather a life-style as part of society over all that makes the difference. If you really believe in a set of religious values then you will practice them. That's true whether you are Christian, Muslim or follow the values of Huitzilopochtli and sacrifice people everyday to keep the world working.
                But it isn't just this one thing. You need a common set of values in society too. You need a common language. You need common traditions. You need social institutions that everyone accepts and joins.
                Without all of that you don't have a society. It is Progressive values like Multiculturalism that are a fail. It promotes for all intents "Separate but equal." We know how the more obvious and egregious examples of that have failed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would like to focus on lying to children for a bit.

                  What constitutes a lie and what is simply a fable intended to appeal to children and teach by way of a parable? Or perhaps a children's story is just fantasy for the pure joy of the imagination. If literature is art does every story have to be work of realism? What harm is there in fantasy and the surreal?

                  It's just not children for whom fantasy has an appeal but adults as well. The girls in playboy, the hero's and bad guys in movies, monsters and spaceships are all lies. How can a child navigate a world that is full of lies and not feel lied to? Do adults always know what is a lie and what is fantasy?

                  For some people religion is a lie and much of the religious texts I have read is clearly not believable. You can't possibly explain to a child how anthropology, geology, and history disprove religious texts. Do we simply not allow our children to be exposed to religion? Do we tell children that religion is just like the stories in a fable? How does religion harm a child does it make them less curious? Does religion poison a child's mind making them incapable of accepting reality or science? I'm not sure but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

                  Perhaps worse than lying to children is hiding the truth from them. Do we really want to tell children there is no buggy man and then tell them to never get in a car with strangers? Why shouldn't children know there are bad people and things in the world? Nothing could be more frightening than the old fables but they made kids think about going places they shouldn't and are rich is allegory. They don't have to believe in the wicked witch to learn to avoid dangerous places.

                  It seems to me that we should let children explore the world while keeping them safe. Not so safe that they are never exposed to unpleasant ideas or images but safe from physical or emotional shock. We shouldn't place our children in a physical or emotional straight jacket. Just as we wouldn't let them drive a car that we are not in control of we need to let them drive their curiosity where they want always prepared to advert a crash.

                  If we encourage children to share their fantasies with us that may be the best way for them to learn the difference between the world of the imagination and purposeful lying to deceive.

                  Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are not lies any more than Star Wars or the bible are lies. They are part of a culture that children should embrace with the critical intelligence that understands not just the value of honesty but of art and imagination. The confusion that results from telling a child that their pet went to heaven seems to me less destructive than raising a child that can't imagine a heaven. Telling them they are going to hell because they lied is a completely different problem assuming they decide there is no hell as they mature.
                  We hunt the hunters

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                  • #10
                    Here's a great book on what I was talking about above.

                    http://bowlingalone.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                      I would like to focus on lying to children for a bit....
                      Well, I was trying to think of an answer to that, and today I saw another vid by the same fellow that made the one up top.
                      Its not about that, exactly, but it sounds like a better answer than I have, more clearly announced I think.

                      Its about the mass-shooters and how to stop them, but about 20 min in he gets to what I was thinking of, and between 24-30 min its VERY relevant.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q55xKfqvBTo

                      Good enough?

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                      • #12
                        I watched his video on the immigration crises.

                        He sums up my feelings pretty well.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOLcMqdpls

                        Basicly he states that the conditions that immigrants are fleeing too were paid for in the blood, sweat and tears of the ancestors that built the host nations over the last 2500 years. The values and habits necessary to create those coveted conditions are acquired over centuries. It is therefor impossible to transplant the necessary values and habits on the potential immigrants without destroying the immigrants culture. With these considerations it is morally justifiable to expect the would be immigrants to pay the same price as the hosts ancestors to create similar conditions in the nations they are trying to flee from despite the obvious suffering that results.
                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment

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