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  • #16
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    Get them well?

    Most mental illnesses are conditions, life-long situations. You can contain the worst of the effects with medication (if they take them) and counseling (if they take part), but that's about it.

    And they're not bastards. They just functioning in a very different reality than most other people. They are acting on what is to them very real threats, dangers, and situations.

    Its just how life goes, sometimes. You can't make it into a right or wrong, black and white situation.
    Let me rephrase my statement, if a doctor determines they are well enough to leave the mental institution, then they should be tried for the crime they committed.
    So in this case, the guy is declared innocent by reason of insanity, he goes to a mental institute, they treat him, in two years the "specialist " declare him well enough to leave.
    That means he is well enough to be held accountable for his actions.
    I can not under any circumstances agree with the idea that someone capable of beheading his wife, killing his father and doing great bodily harm to himself should ever walk the streets again.
    I am suffering from compulsory sanity syndrome. In today's society that make my suffering even greater,
    There is no logical reason for known dangerous people to be allowed on the streets, we have the will to lock up others for life and make them crazy, why not take those who are already crazy and dangerous and lock them up ?
    Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
    Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
      Let me rephrase my statement, if a doctor determines they are well enough to leave the mental institution, then they should be tried for the crime they committed.
      There's that pesky Bill of Rights stopping your plans dead in their tracks again.

      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
      I can not under any circumstances agree with the idea that someone capable of beheading his wife, killing his father and doing great bodily harm to himself should ever walk the streets again.
      You don't have to agree. This is the USA: you can complain to your heart's content.

      Doesn't change a thing, but at least you'll feel better.

      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
      There is no logical reason for known dangerous people to be allowed on the streets, we have the will to lock up others for life and make them crazy, why not take those who are already crazy and dangerous and lock them up ?
      Actually in most states more murderers walk free than do time. The national murder clearance rate is 60%, and that's with a hefty amount of padding and outright lying on the statistical reports. And a number of really excellent agencies lifting up everyone else's average. Baltimore admits to a 40% clearance rates, which should mean about 27-30% actually cleared.

      So if we let most sane people walk, why are you picking on the helpless victims of a mental illness?
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        There's that pesky Bill of Rights stopping your plans dead in their tracks again.



        You don't have to agree. This is the USA: you can complain to your heart's content.

        Doesn't change a thing, but at least you'll feel better.



        Actually in most states more murderers walk free than do time. The national murder clearance rate is 60%, and that's with a hefty amount of padding and outright lying on the statistical reports. And a number of really excellent agencies lifting up everyone else's average. Baltimore admits to a 40% clearance rates, which should mean about 27-30% actually cleared.

        So if we let most sane people walk, why are you picking on the helpless victims of a mental illness?
        Keep in mind, I'm playing devils advocate here.....so here it goes.
        If we can justify the shooting of a teenage girl for driving her car toward a policeman we can certainly justify the detaining for life of a man who has beheaded his wife, butchered his father and mutilated himself. Or a man at a movie theater who guns down 39 people, or a student who kills multiple victims.
        The justice system should have one goal, protecting law abiding citizens from non law abiding citizens. Period!
        The sad thing is you are right. Even our police are trained go go along with the principle that there are no principles. Murder means nothing, human life is worthless.
        And then we are somehow sho led when police officers shoot unarmed people in the back. Hell, we should celebrate such events! They should be elevated to Rock Star status for living up to the low standards we have delvolved to.
        Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
        Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
          Keep in mind, I'm playing devils advocate here.....so here it goes.
          If we can justify the shooting of a teenage girl for driving her car toward a policeman we can certainly justify the detaining for life of a man who has beheaded his wife, butchered his father and mutilated himself. Or a man at a movie theater who guns down 39 people, or a student who kills multiple victims.
          Not at all. A car is a weapon-they have killed more Americans than all the wars we have fought combined. You've probably heard about wars.

          Not to mention comparing use of force with judicial action is really, really, silly.

          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
          The justice system should have one goal, protecting law abiding citizens from non law abiding citizens. Period!
          Again, that pesky Bill of rights getting in the way. 100% of people are innocent until proven guilty.

          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
          The sad thing is you are right. Even our police are trained go go along with the principle that there are no principles. Murder means nothing, human life is worthless.
          Everyone has rights. Not just middle-aged white guys and their friends and family. EVERYONE. Regardless of color, regardless of mental state.

          As to the value of Human life, no judge or jury verdict ever undid a murder.

          Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
          And then we are somehow sho led when police officers shoot unarmed people in the back. Hell, we should celebrate such events! They should be elevated to Rock Star status for living up to the low standards we have delvolved to.
          I can't speak for your standards, which seem bitter and anti-American, but the simple fact is that unlike sailing in circles in the Navy waiting for the boat to rust, US police officers actually perform a valuable mission. Its that classic case of those who can, do, and those who can't, complain.
          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
            Let me rephrase my statement, if a doctor determines they are well enough to leave the mental institution, then they should be tried for the crime they committed.
            So in this case, the guy is declared innocent by reason of insanity, he goes to a mental institute, they treat him, in two years the "specialist " declare him well enough to leave.
            That means he is well enough to be held accountable for his actions.
            I can not under any circumstances agree with the idea that someone capable of beheading his wife, killing his father and doing great bodily harm to himself should ever walk the streets again.
            I am suffering from compulsory sanity syndrome. In today's society that make my suffering even greater,
            There is no logical reason for known dangerous people to be allowed on the streets, we have the will to lock up others for life and make them crazy, why not take those who are already crazy and dangerous and lock them up ?
            It is tragic of course, and true. Maybe if we (I am not just saying the US, its a common enough problem) also held to account the 'experts' who gave these crazies a 'clean sheet' we might arrive at a different situation. Today it seems another crazy with a history of mental issues nearly did serious damage but was shot before things got worse. This is for sure a serious problem.
            Per Ardua ad Astra

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              Not at all. A car is a weapon-they have killed more Americans than all the wars we have fought combined. You've probably heard about wars.

              Not to mention comparing use of force with judicial action is really, really, silly.



              Again, that pesky Bill of rights getting in the way. 100% of people are innocent until proven guilty.



              Everyone has rights. Not just middle-aged white guys and their friends and family. EVERYONE. Regardless of color, regardless of mental state.

              As to the value of Human life, no judge or jury verdict ever undid a murder.



              I can't speak for your standards, which seem bitter and anti-American, but the simple fact is that unlike sailing in circles in the Navy waiting for the boat to rust, US police officers actually perform a valuable mission. Its that classic case of those who can, do, and those who can't, complain.
              No offense intended. Just making the opposition argument here. Everyone of course has constitutional rights. And I'm not a bitter anti-American, just making the counter argument.
              I do believe there is a case to be made that we as a society find it very convenient to use the constitution to hide behind our lack of will to face some problems. We can find obscure meanings in the constitution to grant the right of life and death to teenage girls who are too lazy to take birth control pills. We call it the right to privacy even though that phrase is not in the constitution.
              We both know that much of the mental health problems stem from the use of meth and other drugs. Someday we will hopefully grow a spine and deal with our problems.
              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Lāčplēsis View Post
                It is tragic of course, and true. Maybe if we (I am not just saying the US, its a common enough problem) also held to account the 'experts' who gave these crazies a 'clean sheet' we might arrive at a different situation. Today it seems another crazy with a history of mental issues nearly did serious damage but was shot before things got worse. This is for sure a serious problem.
                I agree. Our system, both legal and mental health system is overloaded, the police and prison system have been thrown under the bus IMO and forced to deal with mental health patients.
                Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                  No offense intended. Just making the opposition argument here. Everyone of course has constitutional rights. And I'm not a bitter anti-American, just making the counter argument.
                  I do believe there is a case to be made that we as a society find it very convenient to use the constitution to hide behind our lack of will to face some problems. We can find obscure meanings in the constitution to grant the right of life and death to teenage girls who are too lazy to take birth control pills. We call it the right to privacy even though that phrase is not in the constitution.
                  We both know that much of the mental health problems stem from the use of meth and other drugs. Someday we will hopefully grow a spine and deal with our problems.
                  We both do not know that at all. You may believe it, but I don't.

                  And no one is hiding behind the BoR. Either it protects all, or it protects none. There's no flex, and there is no obscure clause in that.

                  There's no spine involved. You cannot force an addict to change, and no law, legal system, nor agency is going to change that.
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    We both do not know that at all. You may believe it, but I don't.

                    And no one is hiding behind the BoR. Either it protects all, or it protects none. There's no flex, and there is no obscure clause in that.

                    There's no spine involved. You cannot force an addict to change, and no law, legal system, nor agency is going to change that.
                    True, you can not force anyone to change. But there was a time when we did protect society or at least made the effort.
                    Now it is the constitutional right of homeless to live under bridges and on the sidewalk, again because politician and civic leaders are spineless,
                    Last edited by Urban hermit; 08 Aug 15, 01:38.
                    Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                    Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      A. J. You are a strong defender of the Bill of Rights, I admire that.
                      How does that mesh with the 4th amendment and no knock warrants and the idea that the state can take assets away from individuals that have not had a trial?
                      Or does the BoRs only apply to a selected few?
                      Like the guy who has a sword and has beheaded his wife, three dogs, killed his father, cut off his own arm and ripped out one of his eyes?
                      We should ensure he enjoys freedom.......?
                      He has no clue, he is nuts, he has no concept of freedom and the responsibilities that come with citizenship.
                      This is where the application of the BoRs by the authorities become vague and ambiguous.
                      They are more than willing to find ways to skirt the constitution when it benefits them.
                      Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                      Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                      Comment

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