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In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.

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  • In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...059_story.html

    I got home from the bar and fell into bed soon after Saturday night bled into Sunday morning. I didnt wake up until three police officers barged into my apartment, barking their presence at my door. They sped down the hallway to my bedroom, their service pistols drawn and leveled at me.

    It was just past 9 a.m., and I was still under the covers. The only visible target was my head.

    In the shouting and commotion, I felt an instant familiarity. Id been here before. This was a raid.
    I pretty much agree with his conclusion. Now, I don't live nor have I even visited USA, but this is also the picture I've gotten from media, and from places like ACG.
    Wisdom is personal

  • #2
    Great story!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Karri View Post
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...059_story.html



      I pretty much agree with his conclusion. Now, I don't live nor have I even visited USA, but this is also the picture I've gotten from media, and from places like ACG.
      Agreed.

      Overaggressive measures are not the answer.

      A squatter does not justify a SWAT team.

      A failure to not blink a turn light does not justify an arrest.

      Comment


      • #4
        I understand that in USA the police is quite heavily influenced by military, as a lot of LEOs are ex-military. Is this correct?

        There was also the recent piece, that I am sure was linked somewhere here as well, where some official from LAPD visited Nordic countries to see how cops work here. He was surprised that the trainees were for example allowed to have a beard or tattoos etc. Which at least to me speaks of military mindset.
        Wisdom is personal

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by BKnight3 View Post
          Agreed.

          Overaggressive measures are not the answer.

          A squatter does not justify a SWAT team.

          A failure to not blink a turn light does not justify an arrest.
          Except that this incident did not involve a SWAT team, and a traffic stop for failing to use a turn signal has ALWAYS been an arrest.

          That is the problem with situations like this: complete ignorance of the facts, the law, the system, and history.

          The military did not influence police entry teams-police entry teams trained the military. The Cold War era urban warfare tactics were born of WW2, Korea, the fighting during Tet in Vietnam, and the Israeli experiences. When an urban insurgent scenario hove into sight, DoD turned to the less aggressive, collateral-damage-aware tactics developed by US LE.

          So if you strip away the ignorance, angst, and general stupidity of this thread, you're let with the punctuation.

          You may now resume your whining.
          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

          Comment


          • #6
            Your every argument always seems to be "we do it this way". that's where it begins and that's where it ends.
            Wisdom is personal

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              Except that this incident did not involve a SWAT team, and a traffic stop for failing to use a turn signal has ALWAYS been an arrest.
              Maybe in Texas, but not here. Not using a turn signal here is a mere violation. Arrest only occurs when there's an aggravating factor: suspicion of alcohol or drugs, weapons, outstanding warrants, etc.

              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              The militants did not influence police entry teams-police entry teams trained the military. The Cold War era urban warfare tactics were born of WW2, Korea, the fighting during Tet in Vietnam, and the Israeli experiences. When an urban insurgent scenario hove into sight, DoD turned to the less aggressive, collateral-damage-aware tactics developed by US LE.
              This I think is accurate, as there is now criticism among US military units that too much of their MOUT manual is taken from LE, giving bad guys too much opportunity too inflict casualties.
              I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Karri View Post
                I understand that in USA the police is quite heavily influenced by military, as a lot of LEOs are ex-military. Is this correct?

                There was also the recent piece, that I am sure was linked somewhere here as well, where some official from LAPD visited Nordic countries to see how cops work here. He was surprised that the trainees were for example allowed to have a beard or tattoos etc. Which at least to me speaks of military mindset.

                People outside the U.S. especially those from countries that lack ethnic diversity should consider the difficulties it imposes. In homogenized societies the opportunity for discontent and a justification for violence is considerably less prominent than those nations who are divided by ethnic conflict. Where people do not feel a natural connection to each other they will not behave with the same restraint. Surely the difficulties being faced in many European nations with the recent influx of immigrants is ample proof of the destabilizing influence of diversity.

                Police departments in the U.S. see themselves as enforcers of social stability. To the extent that class represents stability they have historically been seen as the tool of the privileged. It is important to remember however that there is often little choice when faced with anarchy.

                Where the vast majority of the disenfranchised have been free to self organize into resistance groups it is not surprising that the police should take on a military aspect. In societies that only have to deal with the occasional deviant a single police officer will not require the support of fellow officers very often. When whole segments of society present themselves as enemies of stability the need for massed resistance to anarchy is more likely and the police must organize similar to a military organizations.

                A return to a more normal relationship between the police and ordinary individuals will be long and painful as long as deeper social issues are not resolved. The relationship between poverty and crime being the most often sited example. When the public acts more like citizens and less like special interest groups normality of police relations may be restored. The transition however will be difficult as habits of association are difficult to eliminate.

                Despite the opinion of much of the World disarming the population will have little part to play in demilitarizing the police in the U.S. . This is evident in the fact that the worst cases of police violence are often against unarmed groups. The only solution is increased stability by way of social integration.
                We hunt the hunters

                Comment


                • #9
                  Some good points are made though. Would not more training in descalating be of benefit to cops. And gathering intelligence would all so.
                  you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                  CPO Mzinyati

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                    Except that this incident did not involve a SWAT team, and a traffic stop for failing to use a turn signal has ALWAYS been an arrest.

                    That is the problem with situations like this: complete ignorance of the facts, the law, the system, and history.

                    The military did not influence police entry teams-police entry teams trained the military. The Cold War era urban warfare tactics were born of WW2, Korea, the fighting during Tet in Vietnam, and the Israeli experiences. When an urban insurgent scenario hove into sight, DoD turned to the less aggressive, collateral-damage-aware tactics developed by US LE.

                    So if you strip away the ignorance, angst, and general stupidity of this thread, let with the punctuation.

                    You may now resume your whining.
                    An arrest for a turn signal violation is utter stupidity. If it is the law, the law needs to be changed.

                    The militarization of the police is not so much about the origin orfparticular tactic it is about attitude and outlook. The over the top aggressive heavily armed response like in the story above.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lynelhutz View Post
                      An arrest for a turn signal violation is utter stupidity. If it is the law, the law needs to be changed.

                      The militarization of the police is not so much about the origin orfparticular tactic it is about attitude and outlook. The over the top aggressive heavily armed response like in the story above.
                      The response is based on the intelligence at hand and often it is very limited. Every door is potentially hiding a gang of hoodlums in those neighborhoods. Address the social issues and less force and intelligence is needed but until that is a fate accomplished the police will err on the side of caution.
                      We hunt the hunters

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                        People outside the U.S. especially those from countries that lack ethnic diversity should consider the difficulties it imposes. In homogenized societies the opportunity for discontent and a justification for violence is considerably less prominent than those nations who are divided by ethnic conflict. Where people do not feel a natural connection to each other they will not behave with the same restraint. Surely the difficulties being faced in many European nations with the recent influx of immigrants is ample proof of the destabilizing influence of diversity.

                        Police departments in the U.S. see themselves as enforcers of social stability. To the extent that class represents stability they have historically been seen as the tool of the privileged. It is important to remember however that there is often little choice when faced with anarchy.

                        Where the vast majority of the disenfranchised have been free to self organize into resistance groups it is not surprising that the police should take on a military aspect. In societies that only have to deal with the occasional deviant a single police officer will not require the support of fellow officers very often. When whole segments of society present themselves as enemies of stability the need for massed resistance to anarchy is more likely and the police must organize similar to a military organizations.

                        A return to a more normal relationship between the police and ordinary individuals will be long and painful as long as deeper social issues are not resolved. The relationship between poverty and crime being the most often sited example. When the public acts more like citizens and less like special interest groups normality of police relations may be restored. The transition however will be difficult as habits of association are difficult to eliminate.

                        Despite the opinion of much of the World disarming the population will have little part to play in demilitarizing the police in the U.S. . This is evident in the fact that the worst cases of police violence are often against unarmed groups. The only solution is increased stability by way of social integration.

                        Dude even I have issues with the way some of these raids have gone down. Police in SA are required to knock and demand entry. That is only ignored if it will result in death or destruction of evidence. So in this case a raid is not needed. Just a knock would of worked.
                        you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                        CPO Mzinyati

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                          The response is based on the intelligence at hand and often it is very limited. Every door is potentially hiding a gang of hoodlums in those neighborhoods. Address the social issues and less force and intelligence is needed but until that is a fate accomplished the police will err on the side of caution.
                          That is a BS answer. Even in SA this call out would of been one pick up truck and 2 cops who would knock on the door.

                          Maybe if the spoke with the building manger or security guard for the place they would of had more Intel.
                          you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                          CPO Mzinyati

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Turning every entry into an unannounced smash-and-grab only makes the public more and more on edge with police. When the police become seen as "The Enemy" they have a problem. This is one they are helping to create by overreacting.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I was just talking with a local cop (mid 40's) about this yesterday. He said that many of the new officers weren't in the military, still lived at home, had no life experiences to speak of and only knew how to deal with people one way, if at all. The cop I'm speaking of isn't a wimp, either. He's on the regional SWAT team and isn't one to mess with. On the other hand, he doesn't treat everyone he comes in contact with as a criminal and is someone I would love to respond if I needed help.
                              Here's a theory I have. I read years ago that the reason that many mobsters dressed and acted the way they did was by watching Hollywood gangster movies. I wonder if many cops get their role models from the TV show COPS. It seems like even when the suspect is compliant, they keep yelling "Don't resist" and throwing them down and kneeling on them. Don't they understand that it's just another in a series of unreal "reality" shows where the producers and directors tell them to make it more "dramatic"?

                              Comment

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