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  • #46
    Originally posted by flash View Post
    You don't seem able to grasp the point that while an inmate of a workhouse was indeed free to leave,they were also free to jump off a cliff too.
    If they stay they will suffer and be fed enough to stay alive,if they leave they will suffer and starve because nobody could afford charity.

    I believe this is known as "Hobsons choice".

    I wonder how many black slaves were malnourished and deformed by the early 20th century.
    We know that it was common for a class of 40 children in a British city to contain 4-6 malformed children,either knock-kneed,rickets,polio,dwarfism or some such ailment.

    The establishment who had never actually took the time to look at the population of their own country,who ruled the waves and who,s empire the sun never set upon were horrified to find out during the conscription years of WW1 that a great part of its citizens were deformed due to over a century of appalling working conditions coupled with malnutrition.

    The slave was an asset and much like a British farmer would look after his horses a slave owner would look after his slaves.
    This sounds wrong and that's because it is wrong,typing it makes me feel ill but to a mid nineteenth century factory/mine owner the welfare of their workforce was of extreme unimportance, there were always more where they come from.
    Your support for slavery is essentially based on the fact that some people were poor and poor people may as well be slaves. You obviously 'cannot grasp' the fact that slavery was infinitely worse than just being poor.

    "The runaway would be beaten, and salt pickle, lime juice, and bird pepper would be rubbed into his or her open wounds. Another slave would defecate into the mouth of the miscreant, who would then be gagged for four to five hours."[1] The punishment was invented by Thomas Thistlewood, a slave overseer and named for the slave, Derby, who was made to undergo this punishment when he was caught eating young sugar cane stalks in the field on May 25 1756.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby%27s_dose

    A few minutes googling will turn up numerous examples of what it was like to be a slave.
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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    • #47
      Originally posted by flash View Post
      You don't seem able to grasp the point that while an inmate of a workhouse was indeed free to leave,they were also free to jump off a cliff too.
      If they stay they will suffer and be fed enough to stay alive,if they leave they will suffer and starve because nobody could afford charity.

      I believe this is known as "Hobsons choice".

      I wonder how many black slaves were malnourished and deformed by the early 20th century.
      We know that it was common for a class of 40 children in a British city to contain 4-6 malformed children,either knock-kneed,rickets,polio,dwarfism or some such ailment.

      The establishment who had never actually took the time to look at the population of their own country,who ruled the waves and who,s empire the sun never set upon were horrified to find out during the conscription years of WW1 that a great part of its citizens were deformed due to over a century of appalling working conditions coupled with malnutrition.

      The slave was an asset and much like a British farmer would look after his horses a slave owner would look after his slaves.
      This sounds wrong and that's because it is wrong,typing it makes me feel ill but to a mid nineteenth century factory/mine owner the welfare of their workforce was of extreme unimportance, there were always more where they come from.
      That's a rather Dickensian way of looking at the Industrial Revolution and its aftermath. It was not all gloom ,despondency and exploitation.

      To try to equate the lot of working families in Victorian Britain with slavery in the Southern States of the USA is to distort the picture considerably.

      Take my own forebears:while the eldest sons inherited the family farms, their younger siblings looked around for gainful employment. So they left rural Worcestershire and headed for the " City of a Thousand Trades":- Birmingham (UK) ,believing that good money could be made there.And they were not mistaken. True, to modern eyes their living standards were appalling (we have it so much better these days). But they worked, endured and ,eventually prospered. They were by no means unique. They had hope and opportunity. Could the same by said for slaves ?
      Last edited by BELGRAVE; 17 Jul 15, 02:14.
      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
      Samuel Johnson.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        I suppose it's possible that in 200 years people will look back at us and find us somehow barbaric. What is unfortunate is that many people feel that you have to destroy a civilization to progress.
        Good point. I have never really understood why the Confederate states found it necessary to destroy the United States as it existed in order for the 'progress' some here claim they were trying to make. Incisive of you to allude to that.
        Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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        • #49
          Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
          That's a rather Dickensian way of looking at the Industrial Revolution and its aftermath. It was not all gloom ,despondency and exploitation.

          To try to equate the lot of working families in Victorian Britain with slavery in the Southern States of the USA is to distort the picture considerably.

          Take my own forebears:while the eldest sons inherited the family farms, their younger siblings looked around for gainful employment. So they left rural Worcestershire and headed for the " City of a Thousand Trades":- Birmingham (UK) ,believing that good money could be made there.And they were not mistaken. True, to modern eyes their living standards were appalling (we have it so much better these days). But they worked, endured and ,eventually prospered. They were by no means unique. They had hope and opportunity. Could the same by said for slaves ?
          You left out indentured servitude - very common - and extensive, harsh exploitation of child labor, not to mention the systematic forcing of the Irish off their lands to accommodate absentee English landlords' desire to change from farming to cattle.

          And don't forget all of the joys of debtor's prisons, and the Royal Navy habit of "impressemnt" - another term for slavery.

          Dickens wrote fairly nicely about what he saw, given the actual truth.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
            Good point. I have never really understood why the Confederate states found it necessary to destroy the United States as it existed in order for the 'progress' some here claim they were trying to make. Incisive of you to allude to that.
            The United States would have still existed just with less states. The Confederacy didn't try to "destroy" anything. Change, yes, destroy, no.
            I do not wish to have the slave emancipated because I love him, but because I hate his master."
            --Salmon P. Chase

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              You left out indentured servitude - very common - and extensive, harsh exploitation of child labor, not to mention the systematic forcing of the Irish off their lands to accommodate absentee English landlords' desire to change from farming to cattle.

              And don't forget all of the joys of debtor's prisons, and the Royal Navy habit of "impressemnt" - another term for slavery.

              Dickens wrote fairly nicely about what he saw, given the actual truth.
              Obviously, I'm not defending the worst excesses of the"Dark Satanic Mills". No one could.
              I'm merely pointing out that there are other ways of looking at it, and I repeat that there's really no valid comparison between the lot of the working poor of Britain and that of the slaves of the Southern USA and elsewhere.

              Certainly the Industrial Revolution brought with it dirt and misery for many,but it also brought opportunity and hope as well. For those with the will then they could forsake the slums and rural littleness of England and take steerage passage to build new lives in the new lands of the Empire and also, of course, in the United States.

              And do you think that my genuine account of my forebears was distorted or false ? They were real people, and their experience was repeated thousands of times.

              Of course, Charles Dickens- one of the finest writers in English- wrote truly,but if you care to read his works carefully, he also writes of kindness ,hope and humanity as well as cruelty and injustice.
              Last edited by BELGRAVE; 17 Jul 15, 19:36.
              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
              Samuel Johnson.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Savez View Post
                The United States would have still existed just with less states. The Confederacy didn't try to "destroy" anything. Change, yes, destroy, no.
                The precise same observation can be made about 'Southern Civilization'. Removing flags, changing street names & changing or removing monuments doesn't 'destroy' that civilization, it merely changes it. And a great deal less than the loss of the Confederate States would have changed the Union.

                I simply applied the same over the top rhetoric to a cause you agreed with. Sort of puts the ridiculous claims being put about in perspective....or it does for those capable of perspective.
                Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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