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South Carolina Senate Votes to Remove Confederate Flag From Capitol

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  • BorderRuffian
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    You simply can't argue that without slavery racial conflict in the U.S. would be as severe as it is as the racial makeup would be markedly different. Keeping that in mind the direct link between Slave States and racial discord is evident. Any attempt to disconnect Slave States from racial disharmony is intellectual dishonesty.
    - Selective condemnation of a symbol.

    Neo-Nazis use the US flag all across the country.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    The Confederate Battle Flag is a historical artifact and historically it is a symbol of defeat.

    I is not uncommon for a people to display the symbols from a time before they were defeated. For example the Japanese still display their WWII battle flags. The Japanese however are wise enough not to rub it in the noses of their former enemies by making it an official state symbol.

    There is lies the problem as a defeated people unable to come to grips with reality will continue to live in the past and be able to progress normally. No more evidence of this is required than the failure of the South to accept the civil rights movement as evidence of progress. If the racial problems in this country had ended with the civil war then we would not be having this discussion. As it is however our failure to move forward makes us all victims of the sins of our fathers both North and South.

    You simply can't argue that without slavery racial conflict in the U.S. would be as severe as it is as the racial makeup would be markedly different. Keeping that in mind the direct link between Slave States and racial discord is evident. Any attempt to disconnect Slave States from racial disharmony is intellectual dishonesty.

    Leave a comment:


  • BorderRuffian
    replied
    An amendment to allow the people to vote on the flag was defeated 71-48 in the SC House. Interesting. That means at least 48 aren't too thrilled with the process at hand. And 48 is more than 1/3 of House membership.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daemon of Decay
    replied
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    Slavery was an issue. A major issue. Maybe even the primary issue. But you don't get that many non slave owners to vote for secession and fight and die and lose everything just for the top 1 percent. There has to be a cause they can identify with in play as well.
    The social aspects of slavery were well documented as well.

    First, you have the aspirational element of working to get a slave: it was the dream of many poorer southerners of eventually being wealthy enough to own a slave or two.

    Second, the cultural element: slavery was so ingrained into the culture of the south - especially amongst the elite, who held undue influence within the United States both north and south - that the idea of removing slavery was an attack on their very society.

    Third, you have the racist fears which are so often ignored or pushed aside: namely, the idea that millions of freed negroes would lead to widespread lawlessness, theft, assault, and above all, the rape of white women. Freed slaves was a danger to the livelihood of southerners, and racist fears were fanned whenever the idea of abolition was mentioned.

    Fourth, you have the base economic nature of slavery. In the southern mind where cotton was king, the idea of abolition was an inherent threat to all of the south's economic might. The idea that freeing slaves would be the first step towards complete economic ruination and (ironically) the "slavery" of the south to the north.

    Now, all of these ideas and fears overlap with other concerns as well. The paranoia about northern economic might was tied into tariffs and other issues.

    However, the reason slavery is still the cause of the Civil War is because there is no other issue so central to the conflict. You could remove tariffs from the picture and the Civil War would still have occurred, but you don't have a fight without slavery acting as the pillar around which conflict arose.

    The idea that slavery was the only issue is false, of course. But slavery was the issue behind the Civil War - everything else was just extra tinder to help light the flames.

    Leave a comment:


  • BF69
    replied
    Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
    >2015
    >still believing the Civil War was only about slavery
    If that were what I believed (and it isn't) it would be light years closer to the truth than the 'fighting for freedom' narrative that has become so popular among apologists.

    I look forward to you finding some link between the Union & Zionism.

    Leave a comment:


  • TacCovert4
    replied
    Originally posted by joea View Post
    Ahem

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...s-over/396482/

    Not going to quote the bits here-the evidence is plain to see...
    Only. ....only.

    Slavery was an issue. A major issue. Maybe even the primary issue. But you don't get that many non slave owners to vote for secession and fight and die and lose everything just for the top 1 percent. There has to be a cause they can identify with in play as well.

    Let's face it. The northern industrial captains stood to lose a lot of money if slavery was abolished instantly. And we know that the Congress wasn't in a hurry to abolish slavery since the 13th amendment wasn't created until after the war was completely done. The north wanted the south to buy their goods and sell raw materials. And with slaves just freed the wealthy of the south would be bankrupt and unable to do so. The north was competing with the European countries and didn't like it. .....hence some rather nasty tariffs. Unlike slavery. ....tariffs hurt and angered everyone that used primarily imported goods. ...which is to say the whole south.

    Also, those same captains of industry had work practices that are closer to slavery than any labor practice in the modern world. Company stores and child labor and horrific conditions and pay among others.
    Last edited by TacCovert4; 08 Jul 15, 05:32.

    Leave a comment:


  • joea
    replied
    Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
    >2015
    >still believing the Civil War was only about slavery
    Ahem

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...s-over/396482/

    Not going to quote the bits here-the evidence is plain to see...

    Leave a comment:


  • Handsome Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by BF69 View Post
    Yep, nothing says 'F you big government' like killing half a million people for the right to go buy yourself some black folk. What a proud legacy indeed.
    >2015
    >still believing the Civil War was only about slavery

    Leave a comment:


  • BF69
    replied
    Originally posted by drivin-fool View Post
    I personally see it as a big FK you to the govt imposing their will on free people. That's what the southerners felt was happening back then, and I for one am damn proud they took a stand for what they believed in.
    Yep, nothing says 'F you big government' like killing half a million people for the right to go buy yourself some black folk. What a proud legacy indeed.

    Leave a comment:


  • TacCovert4
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    If the South had had any chance of winning or if there had been no political option then the flag would not be a reminder of the pointless death of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians.

    What the flag really represents is a poorly considered rush to war not Southern heritage whatever that is. It is a constant reminder of defeat but not the kind of defeat we suffered in Vietnam or other wars where we were not divided against ourselves. War is horrible but unnecessary wars especially unnecessary civil wars exponentially worse.
    Historical note, it was a bit of a rush by both sides. Lincoln and the Confederates both made rash decisions and called each others bluffs......problem was that no one was bluffing. Certainly the South felt that their grievances weren't being heard, and the North felt that the South had no right to take any action to redress their grievances outside of the Congress and the Courts......which the South (to some degree rightly) believed that Northern interests controlled in 1861.

    Leave a comment:


  • drivin-fool
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
    If the South had had any chance of winning or if there had been no political option then the flag would not be a reminder of the pointless death of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians.

    What the flag really represents is a poorly considered rush to war not Southern heritage whatever that is. It is a constant reminder of defeat but not the kind of defeat we suffered in Vietnam or other wars where we were not divided against ourselves. War is horrible but unnecessary wars especially unnecessary civil wars exponentially worse.
    I respectfully disagree. I am born and bred here in VA, and it is in fact nothing to me except southern heritage. Now you can claim it is this or that all you want, but the fact of the matter is, that flag means different things to different people. I personally see it as a big FK you to the govt imposing their will on free people. That's what the southerners felt was happening back then, and I for one am damn proud they took a stand for what they believed in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taieb el-Okbi
    replied
    I'm a bit surprised at this news. It is what it is though.

    Leave a comment:


  • wolfhnd
    replied
    Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
    Senator Lee Bright-
    “I am more against taking it down in this environment than any other time"

    "We're placing blame on what one deranged lunatic did on people who hold their southern heritage high, and I don't think that's fair.”

    It's a lot more wrong than just "not fair." It associates what the deranged lunatic did with men who died on a battlefield, in a hospital or POW camp.
    The flag flies at a monument to the Confederate dead.
    If the South had had any chance of winning or if there had been no political option then the flag would not be a reminder of the pointless death of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians.

    What the flag really represents is a poorly considered rush to war not Southern heritage whatever that is. It is a constant reminder of defeat but not the kind of defeat we suffered in Vietnam or other wars where we were not divided against ourselves. War is horrible but unnecessary wars especially unnecessary civil wars exponentially worse.

    Leave a comment:


  • slick_miester
    replied
    Is the monument on the statehouse' grounds, or removed from it by some distance?

    Leave a comment:


  • Daemon of Decay
    replied
    Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
    The flag flies at a monument to the Confederate dead.
    Yes, it does. And it will continue to fly there, where it is both appropriate and supported by the electorate.

    Leave a comment:

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