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  • Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
    The USSR murdered 8,000,000 of its own civilians via forced famine and some 10,000,000 via repression, gulags, and executions. It then laid waste to some 15,000,000 innocent German civilians, some 5,000 Polish, and 1,100 Finnish. Stalin's regime is typically estimated as having killed 50,000,000 civilians in total over the course of his rule.

    Japan murdered 25,000,000 Chinese civilians via direct attacks, massacres, mass-rapes, and prison camps. Over 50% of Japanese KIA losses in the Pacific were caused by forced suicide or "Banzai" attacks, such as charging bare-fisted against enemies with automatic weaponry, as well as the Kamikaze tactic of flying planes directly into enemy ships. We can count those as murdering Japanese civilians too.

    So between the USSR and Japan you're looking at, bare-minimum, 75,000,000 innocent non-combatants killed by direct atrocities. Germany's civilian death toll is commonly estimated at 8,000,000 minimum to 12,000,000 maximum.

    The countries that killed 75,000,000 are morally superior to the country that killed 10,000,000?

    also tl;dr this has gone insanely ing off topic can we please stop please
    Several things, though:

    - Germany was responsible for more deaths than the 11 million Holocaust victims. The total number of fatalities directly attributable to the Nazi regime (besides, you know, the war itself) is around 20-26 million, nearly as high as Japan's total (20-30+ million). Both were incredibly barbarous and represented the pinnacle of human evil. Nothing like either of them has ever been seen before in history, at least not on that scale. I just take issue with the assertion that Japan was somehow 'better' or 'more honorable,' given that they were both guilty of the same things, and in some ways the Japanese were worse.

    - The Soviets did not "lay waste" to 15,000,000 German civilians. Around 2,250,000 German civilians perished over the course of the war, 600,000 of them due to Allied strategic bombing. Many of the remainder died in the chaos that enveloped the collapsing Reich and cannot be attributed to direct war crimes by any one nation.

    - According to Japanese medical data, two-thirds of military fatalities in the Pacific were from starvation and disease. "Banzai" charges themselves didn't even appear in the IJA infantry handbook (which generally advocated against frontal assaults), rather they were last-ditch acts of desperation by men running out of ammunition and provisions and facing annihilation. They were less an actual military tactic and more a "taking you down with me" suicide attack.

    Comment


    • I have no idea where your "28,000,000" statistic comes from for Germany, and I also have no idea how you can claim Germany was the most evil, brutal regime in world history when the USSR murdered a MINIMUM of 50,000,000 people, and at max perhaps 100,000,000 over the course of Stalin's regime. You're buying into propaganda long since disproven.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
        I have no idea where your "28,000,000" statistic comes from for Germany, and I also have no idea how you can claim Germany was the most evil, brutal regime in world history when the USSR murdered a MINIMUM of 50,000,000 people, and at max perhaps 100,000,000 over the course of Stalin's regime. You're buying into propaganda long since disproven.
        26,000,000. It comes from Chalmers Johnson, an authority on this subject who I quoted earlier. It's NOT propaganda and it certainly hasn't been 'disproven.'

        Stalin killed 100 million, huh? I didn't realize he murdered half the total population of the USSR. The most common estimates for 'unnatural deaths' under Stalin's rule range from about 20 million (Chirot, Conquest et. al.) to as high as 60 million (Rummel, Solzhenitsyn, Dyadkin et. al.). What differentiates them and other deaths under Communist regimes such as Mao's from those attributable to Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan was the way they perished. Most civilian deaths under Red dictators were due to starvation caused by mismanagement or neglect on the part of the government. Usually excess deaths among the populace were approached with an attitude similar to China's foreign minister Chen Yi during the Great Leap Forward:
        "Casualties have indeed appeared among workers, but it is not enough to stop us in our tracks. This is the price we have to pay, it's nothing to be afraid of. Who knows how many people have been sacrificed on the battlefields and in the prisons [for the revolutionary cause]? Now we have a few cases of illness and death: it's nothing!"

        Only a few instances such as Stalin's Holodomor in Ukraine can be labelled as 'intentional extermination.' Whereas with the Nazis and Japanese, the deaths were overwhelmingly violent or deliberate: shooting, gas, bacteriological agents, concentration camps, etc. They were the objective, rather than a "price to pay." Moreover, they all occurred within the very short space of 1937-1945. The other deaths were dispersed over decades. That is why the Fascist regimes were worse.

        Comment


        • Ah, so Stalin openly stating to his staff the intent of the Holodomor, as well as the gulags and mass-executions, as well as the mass rape of the eastern half of Germany, it's all just made-up fantasy, huh?

          I see what side you stand on now. Apologists of Jihadism, Zionism, and Communism get no respect from me whatsoever.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
            Ah, so Stalin openly stating to his staff the intent of the Holodomor, as well as the gulags and mass-executions, as well as the mass rape of the eastern half of Germany, it's all just made-up fantasy, huh?
            Nice strawman.

            Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
            I see what side you stand on now. Apologists of Jihadism, Zionism, and Communism get no respect from me whatsoever.
            Ditto for Holocaust deniers, chump.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
              Stalin killed 100 million, huh? I didn't realize he murdered half the total population of the USSR. The most common estimates for 'unnatural deaths' under Stalin's rule range from about 20 million (Chirot, Conquest et. al.) to as high as 60 million (Rummel, Solzhenitsyn, Dyadkin et. al.). What differentiates them and other deaths under Communist regimes such as Mao's from those attributable to Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan was the way they perished. Most civilian deaths under Red dictators were due to starvation caused by mismanagement or neglect on the part of the government. Usually excess deaths among the populace were approached with an attitude similar to China's foreign minister Chen Yi during the Great Leap Forward:
              Only a few instances such as Stalin's Holodomor in Ukraine can be labelled as 'intentional extermination.' Whereas with the Nazis and Japanese, the deaths were overwhelmingly violent or deliberate: shooting, gas, bacteriological agents, concentration camps, etc. They were the objective, rather than a "price to pay." Moreover, they all occurred within the very short space of 1937-1945. The other deaths were dispersed over decades. That is why the Fascist regimes were worse.
              So you do not support Rummel's democide theory?
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              • Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                So you do not support Rummel's democide theory?
                Rummel defines "Democide" loosely as "Any murder by government--by officials acting under the authority of government. That is, they act according to explicit or implicit government policy or with the implicit or explicit approval of the highest officials."

                In greater detail, he defines it as:
                Any actions by government:

                (1) designed to kill or cause the death of people

                (1.1) because of their religion, race, language, ethnicity, national origin, class, politics, speech, actions construed as opposing the government or wrecking social policy, or by virtue of their relationship to such people;
                (1.2) in order to fulfill a quota or requisition system;
                (1.3) in furtherance of a system of forced labor or enslavement;
                (1.4) by massacre;
                (1.5) through imposition of lethal living conditions;
                (1.6) by directly targeting noncombatants during a war or violent conflict.

                (2) that cause death by virtue of an intentionally or knowingly reckless and depraved disregard for life (which constitutes practical intentionality), as in

                (2.1) deadly prison, concentration camp, forced labor, prisoner of war, or recruit camp conditions;
                (2.2) killing medical or scientific experiments on humans;
                (2.3) torture or beatings;
                (2.4) encouraged or condoned murder, or rape, looting, and pillage during which people are killed;
                (2.5) a famine or epidemic during which government authorities withhold aid, or knowingly act in a way to make it more deadly;
                (2.6) forced deportations and expulsions causing deaths.

                (3) with the following qualifications and clarifications:

                (a) "government" includes de facto governance, as by the Communist Party of the People's Republic of China; or by a rebel or warlord army over a region and population it has conquered, as by the brief rule of Moslem Turks (East Turkistan Republic) over part of Sinkiang Province (1944-1946);
                (b) "actions by governments" comprise official or authoritative actions by government officials, including the police, military, or secret service; or such non-governmental actions (e.g., by brigands, press-gangs, or secret societies) receiving government approval, aid, or acceptance;
                (c) clause 1.1 includes, for example, directly targeting noncombatants during a war or violent conflict out of hatred or revenge, or to depopulate an enemy region or terrorize or force the population into urging surrender; this would involve, among other actions, indiscriminate urban bombing or shelling, or blockades that cause mass starvation;
                (d) "relationship to such people" (clause 1.1) includes their relatives, colleagues, co-workers, teachers, or students;
                (e) "massacre" (clause 1.4) includes the mass killing of prisoners of war or of captured rebels;
                (f) "quota" system (clause 1.3) includes randomly selecting people for execution in order to meet a quota; or arresting people according to a quota, some of whom are then executed;
                (g) "requisition" system (clause 1.3) includes taking from peasants or farmers all their food and produce, leaving them to starve to death;
                (h) and excluding from the definition:
                (h.1) execution for what are internationally considered capital crimes, such as murder, rape, spying, treason, and the like, so long as evidence does not exist that such allegations were invented by the government in order to execute the accused;
                (h.2) actions taken against armed civilians during mob action or a riot (e.g., killing people with weapons in their hands is not democide);
                (h.3) the death of noncombatants killed during attacks on military targets so long as the primary target is military (e.g., during bombing enemy logistics)


                Therefore, under this definition, the enormous loss of life under Communist regimes can firmly be labeled "democide" and by extension, "murder," since they could have been prevented. The key difference, though, was that unlike Germany and Japan the deaths of millions were not always an explicit goal, but rather a 'side effect' of callous policies and indifference to suffering if it meant a regime's aims could be accomplished faster. Obviously, there are exceptions to this rule: Stalin deliberately starved millions of Ukrainian kulaks to death during the '30s by stealing their grain. He also was responsible for the Great Purge (600,000-1.2 million executed from '36-38) and the GULags (2-3 million deaths over the Stalin era), just as Mao, Kim, and the rest of them were directly responsible for various repressions in their own countries that ultimately killed millions of innocents. But most deaths were not so much due to the government coming to people's houses and killing them or throwing them into camps, but to the generally deplorable conditions that come with living under a Communist dictatorship. That's the difference between the Communists and the Fascists.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                  Ditto for Holocaust deniers, chump.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
                    The USSR murdered 8,000,000 of its own civilians via forced famine and some 10,000,000 via repression, gulags, and executions. It then laid waste to some 15,000,000 innocent German civilians, some 5,000 Polish, and 1,100 Finnish. Stalin's regime is typically estimated as having killed 50,000,000 civilians in total over the course of his rule.

                    Japan murdered 25,000,000 Chinese civilians via direct attacks, massacres, mass-rapes, and prison camps. Over 50% of Japanese KIA losses in the Pacific were caused by forced suicide or "Banzai" attacks, such as charging bare-fisted against enemies with automatic weaponry, as well as the Kamikaze tactic of flying planes directly into enemy ships. We can count those as murdering Japanese civilians too.

                    So between the USSR and Japan you're looking at, bare-minimum, 75,000,000 innocent non-combatants killed by direct atrocities. Germany's civilian death toll is commonly estimated at 8,000,000 minimum to 12,000,000 maximum.

                    The countries that killed 75,000,000 are morally superior to the country that killed 10,000,000?

                    also tl;dr this has gone insanely ing off topic can we please stop please
                    .....and the hole gets deeper.

                    So, on one line you claim Stalin 'laid waste' to 15 million German civilians, on another to give a maximum estimate of German civilian dead at 12 mill. Which completely made up figure are you going with?

                    Then we have Russia only killing 5000 Poles & 1,100 Finns. Really? My bet is that you missed a few zeroes. Of course, a figure of 1000 for dead Finns is actually a lot closer than the figure I suspect you meant to write.

                    Finally you are trying to tell us that Germany was responsible for 10 million deaths in WW2. Hands up anyone who actually believes this drivel? Nobody? Russian deaths alone top 10 mill, and that doesn't cover the holocaust & deaths in all the other nations Germany invaded.



                    For people who are unfamiliar with holocaust deniers, (and I've dealt with some pros over the years) it is commonplace to understate the numbers killed by Germany while overstating the scale of German suffering. Add in the Zionist/Marxist conspiracy theories & it looks like we've got us a live one folks.

                    Our resident Conservative Warriors might want to take a moment before they rush to agree with this bloke on all the things where you do see eye to eye. Might get a bit awkward.
                    Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Handsome Jack View Post
                      The USSR murdered 8,000,000 of its own civilians via forced famine and some 10,000,000 via repression, gulags, and executions. It then laid waste to some 15,000,000 innocent German civilians, some 5,000 Polish, and 1,100 Finnish. Stalin's regime is typically estimated as having killed 50,000,000 civilians in total over the course of his rule.

                      Japan murdered 25,000,000 Chinese civilians via direct attacks, massacres, mass-rapes, and prison camps. Over 50% of Japanese KIA losses in the Pacific were caused by forced suicide or "Banzai" attacks, such as charging bare-fisted against enemies with automatic weaponry, as well as the Kamikaze tactic of flying planes directly into enemy ships. We can count those as murdering Japanese civilians too.

                      So between the USSR and Japan you're looking at, bare-minimum, 75,000,000 innocent non-combatants killed by direct atrocities. Germany's civilian death toll is commonly estimated at 8,000,000 minimum to 12,000,000 maximum.

                      The countries that killed 75,000,000 are morally superior to the country that killed 10,000,000?

                      also tl;dr this has gone insanely ing off topic can we please stop please
                      I welcomed this discussion of the EOJ after another posted brought up the EOJ. Btw I have already acknowledged that the IJA committed war crimes during WW2. Why you and others continue to bring up random stories of Japanese war crimes is beyond me. I have specifically stated that the EOJ held a level of honor that Nazi Germany lacked.


                      Let us keep in mind that there were Jews(some were Germans), Gypsies(some were Germans), mentally handicapped folks(some were Germans) that the Nazis killed as part of a systematic extermination plan. The EOJ did not exterminate its own people like Nazi Germany did. Nazi Germany went after German Jews, this IMO puts Nazi Germany on the level of being worst actor of WW2.

                      Also please note the following,

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_during_World_War_I
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckuma_Shigenobu


                      The same can not be said about Nazi Germany because Nazi Germany was not as strong as the EOJ, lasting only 12 years. Nazi Germany fought the UK, where as at one point the EOJ was allied with the UK(see WW1). The EOJ had military attaches here in the USA. Tadamichi Kuribayashi served as a military attache to Washington, D.C. There is a positive aspect to the history of relations between the EOJ and the USA, see the following,

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%..._United_States

                      I have not been able to find one Nazi loyal to Hitler who had the level of honor and dignity that folks such as Tadamichi Kuribayashi held.

                      One can imagine that the type of honorable Japanese attitude that existed during WW1 also carried over in some Japanese folks during WW2.
                      Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 11 Jul 15, 12:41.

                      Comment


                      • Btw I would not mind having the EOJ discussion itt moved over to the WW2 section, just to make things easier.

                        Maybe a mod could move out the more recent EOJ related posts itt over to the following thread,

                        http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=161300

                        Comment


                        • The subject is of this thread is Obama and his Ramadan dinner.

                          Today's menu:

                          Filet of unborn goat

                          Fava beans and pork-free weenies Cajum style

                          Fig fingers

                          Apple blow ups a'la Baghdad

                          Recycled apple juice


                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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