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Should the Confederate flag be removed from SC statehouse grounds?

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  • Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
    Interesting that you would rely on your own prejudices to condemn what you assume to be their prejudices.
    Not all people who like the confederate flag are racists or white supremacists.
    Then they are morons...you can't unwrap racism and supremacy from the Confederate Flag. It's not racism or heritage....it's a racist heritage.

    Trying to argue that the flag, or those behind it, don't represent racism and supremacy...you're going to have to do better as your first attempt is laughable.
    #occupyarmchairgeneral.
    Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes.
    Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. Laurence J. Peter

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Crash View Post
      Then they are morons...you can't unwrap racism and supremacy from the Confederate Flag. It's not racism or heritage....it's a racist heritage.

      Trying to argue that the flag, or those behind it, don't represent racism and supremacy...you're going to have to do better as your first attempt is laughable.


      You will note that I made no claim as to what the flag represented. As a result, your effort to change the subject to me, or what I never said, doesn't make sense.

      I merely made note of the irony of your relying on your own prejudices when trying to condemn that trait in others.
      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Crash View Post
        Then they are morons...you can't unwrap racism and supremacy from the Confederate Flag. It's not racism or heritage....it's a racist heritage.
        You also can't unwrap the Democrats from racism and white supremacy:


        Most whites rallied around the Democratic Party as the party of white supremacy. Between 1868 and 1871, terrorist organizations, especially the Ku Klux Klan, murdered blacks and whites who tried to exercise their right to vote or receive an education. The Klan, working with Democrats in several states, used fraud and violence to help whites regain control of their state governments. By the early 1870s, most Southern states had been "redeemed" -- as many white Southerners called it -- from Republican rule. By the time the last federal troops had been withdrawn in 1877, Reconstruction was all but over and the Democratic Party controlled the destiny of the South.

        http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stor...construct.html

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        • Originally posted by Nichols View Post
          You also can't unwrap the Democrats from racism and white supremacy:


          Most whites rallied around the Democratic Party as the party of white supremacy. Between 1868 and 1871, terrorist organizations, especially the Ku Klux Klan, murdered blacks and whites who tried to exercise their right to vote or receive an education. The Klan, working with Democrats in several states, used fraud and violence to help whites regain control of their state governments. By the early 1870s, most Southern states had been "redeemed" -- as many white Southerners called it -- from Republican rule. By the time the last federal troops had been withdrawn in 1877, Reconstruction was all but over and the Democratic Party controlled the destiny of the South.

          http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stor...construct.html
          Oh...dude...1877? You had to go back 138 years to find instances of Democratic racism...really?
          #occupyarmchairgeneral.
          Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes.
          Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. Laurence J. Peter

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Crash View Post
            Oh yes...I am well aware of the level of "nationalism" lusted for in the US. Nothing like a good flag to "separate" people!

            It is in the best interest of the wealthy and their puppet, the government and the courts, to enable it, fan the flames in fact, creating separation in the masses....keeps the unwashed in line and staring at their own bellybuttons.
            What? That's not even remotely related to what I'm talking about. Take your socialist nonsense elsewhere and try discussing the actual topic.
            "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

            Comment


            • http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...f-civil-rights

              I could point out that the passage of the Civil Rights act pushed opposition into the arms of the Republican Party.....

              But that would be a simplification

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Crash View Post
                Oh...dude...1877? You had to go back 138 years to find instances of Democratic racism...really?
                How about Robert Byrd, former United States senator (died in office in 2010) and former Exalted Cyclops of the Ku Klux Klan).?

                Or Bull Conner, Commissioner of Public Safety for the city of Birmingham, Alabama, in the 1960s?

                I'm not big on painting the Democratic Party of 2015 with a broad paintbrush of supporting segregation fifty years ago (although Byrd is a bit more recent), but, hey, you started it.
                Don't leave good whiskey for the damn Yankees!" John Hunt Morgan, Eagleport, Ohio, July 23, 1863

                Comment


                • Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                  What?
                  Exactly...what I'm talking about is next level !! Beyond many's comprehension...

                  Kind of like how the federal government still supports and practices systemic racism?
                  You know why they allow systemic racism...to the point some States actually fly the racist flag?

                  So the unwashed keep staring at their own belly button instead of at the rich and their puppets, the government and courts! With American's it seems like racism is the easiest way to do this.
                  Last edited by Crash; 30 Jun 15, 10:18.
                  #occupyarmchairgeneral.
                  Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes.
                  Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. Laurence J. Peter

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Crash View Post
                    Exactly...what I'm talking about is next level !! Beyond many's comprehension...
                    The last refuge of the conspiracy nutjob. "It's all true you just can't see it man, only I know the truth!"
                    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by guthrieba View Post
                      How about Robert Byrd, former United States senator (died in office in 2010) and former Exalted Cyclops of the Ku Klux Klan).?

                      Or Bull Conner, Commissioner of Public Safety for the city of Birmingham, Alabama, in the 1960s?

                      I'm not big on painting the Democratic Party of 2015 with a broad paintbrush of supporting segregation fifty years ago
                      (although Byrd is a bit more recent), but, hey, you started it.
                      Thats good to hear. That said folks can bring up Robert Byrd when talking about democrats with checkered history, but then again there were also folks like Barry Goldwater, a well known GOP member whom opposed the civil rights act of 1964.

                      Also there was the Democratic-Republican Party, with members such as Andrew Jackson, so hey maybe the Democratic-Republican Party party started it.

                      My point here is that I feel it would be inaccurate to say X political party started segregation in the USA. Rather we can see that segregation of whites and blacks, slavery, women not in politics, was in fact a part of the early history of the USA. This type of behavior has also been seen in other past societies as well.

                      If someone claims the GOP is historically more racist then the democratic side or vs versa, then I would say this would be a unnecessary, and incorrect thing to say.

                      During the 1930s/1940s, a large # of African Americans supported the democratic party. During WW2, there was a group of African American pilots known as the Tuskegee airman. I would say that the Tuskegee airman played a big role in contributing to more and more white Americans changing their previously held anti African American viewpoints.

                      There have been some folks saying that President Obama only works for the blacks, but the GOP itself has lost the black vote wrt the Presidential election each time since 1932. So therefore would these folks also say that FDR was only working for blacks, or that Truman only worked for blacks, after all these two won the black vote. I also think its crucial to take note of the statistic below which suggests that during the elections of FDR, that the number of blacks identifying themselves as Republicans was about the same as the number who thought of themselves as Democrats.




                      Blacks mostly voted Republican from after the Civil War and through the early part of the 20th century. Thatís not surprising when one considers that Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president, and the white, segregationist politicians who governed Southern states in those days were Democrats. The Democratic Party didnít welcome blacks then, and it wasnít until 1924 that blacks were even permitted to attend Democratic conventions in any official capacity. Most blacks lived in the South, where they were mostly prevented from voting at all.

                      ...

                      The election of Roosevelt in 1932 marked the beginning of a change. He got 71 percent of the black vote for president in 1936 and did nearly that well in the next two elections, according to historical figures kept by the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies. But even then, the number of blacks identifying themselves as Republicans was about the same as the number who thought of themselves as Democrats.

                      ...

                      But then President Lyndon B. Johnson pushed through the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964 (outlawing segregation in public places) and his eventual Republican opponent, Sen. Barry Goldwater, opposed it. Johnson got 94 percent of the black vote that year, still a record for any presidential election.

                      The following year Johnson signed the 1965 Voting Rights Act. No Republican presidential candidate has gotten more than 15 percent of the black vote since.

                      more,

                      http://www.factcheck.org/2008/04/bla...ocratic-party/
                      Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 30 Jun 15, 12:47. Reason: Democratic-Republican Party, as opposed to whig party

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Crash View Post
                        Oh...dude...1877? You had to go back 138 years to find instances of Democratic racism...really?
                        Crash that was in reply to your claim that "you can't unwrap racism and supremacy":

                        Originally posted by Crash View Post
                        Then they are morons...you can't unwrap racism and supremacy from the Confederate Flag. It's not racism or heritage....it's a racist heritage.

                        Trying to argue that the flag, or those behind it, don't represent racism and supremacy...you're going to have to do better as your first attempt is laughable.
                        Are you now saying that you can unwrap racism and supremacy?

                        You also need to crack open the history books, the Democrats kept segregation alive all the way up until 1964.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                          Thats good to hear. That said folks can bring up Robert Byrd when talking about democrats with checkered history, but then again there were also folks like Barry Goldwater, a well known GOP member whom opposed the civil rights act of 1964.

                          Also there is the Whig party, with members such as Andrew Jackson, so hey maybe the whig party started it.

                          I believe that Andrew Jackson was elected as a Democrat.

                          Goldwater did not oppose the Civil Rights Act out of any racial animus; rather, his opposition was because he thought it was an inappropriate expansion of Federal power. He was not using his argument regarding the expansion of Federal power as a cover for some underlying racial animus.
                          Don't leave good whiskey for the damn Yankees!" John Hunt Morgan, Eagleport, Ohio, July 23, 1863

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post

                            But then President Lyndon B. Johnson pushed through the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964 (outlawing segregation in public places) and his eventual Republican opponent, Sen. Barry Goldwater, opposed it. Johnson got 94 percent of the black vote that year, still a record for any presidential election.

                            The following year Johnson signed the 1965 Voting Rights Act. No Republican presidential candidate has gotten more than 15 percent of the black vote since.
                            The Republicans were the ones that delivered the bill to the President's desk, he really didn't have a choice but to sign it.



                            1. More Republicans voted in favor of the Civil Rights Act than Democrats
                            In the 1960s, Congress was divided on civil rights issues -- but not necessarily along party lines.




                            5. A segregationist congressman's attempt to kill the bill backfired
                            Virginia's Democratic Rep. Howard W. Smith was a staunch segregationist and strongly opposed the Civil Rights Act.
                            Smith, who was chairman of the House Rules Committee, came up with many tactics to discourage the passage of the bill's Title VII, which would outlaw employment discrimination because of race, color, religion or national origin.

                            When Smith added the word "sex," the House reportedly laughed out loud. The ploy was Smith's attempt to quash support among the chamber's male chauvinists on the grounds that the bill would protect women's rights in the workplace, according to Clay Risen in his book "The Bill of the Century."

                            http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/politi...resting-facts/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
                              http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...f-civil-rights

                              I could point out that the passage of the Civil Rights act pushed opposition into the arms of the Republican Party.....

                              But that would be a simplification

                              I am assuming that you are suggesting that the racists went to the republican party.
                              Yes, it would be an oversimplification and would require that we ignore some basic facts and logic.

                              In 1968 southern voters did not flock to the republican party, they voted for the third party candidate George Wallace.

                              In 1976 the south voted for Jimmy Carter, A dem
                              http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...rqA&ajaxhist=0

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...election,_1976

                              When Clinton won in 1992 the Southern States split.
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...election,_1992

                              And did so again in 1996
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...election,_1996

                              Additionally, the claim that the racist opposed to the 1963 civil rights act now vote for republicans and this is why the GOP is stronger in the South requires us to accept that despite the passage of about 50 years, those southern voters have not died off, nor been affected by the influx of northerners who have moved south.
                              Somehow, the South must have remained unchanged and its people undying.
                              Last edited by Cambronnne; 30 Jun 15, 14:28.
                              Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                              Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                                The Republicans were the ones that delivered the bill to the President's desk, he really didn't have a choice but to sign it.



                                1. More Republicans voted in favor of the Civil Rights Act than Democrats
                                In the 1960s, Congress was divided on civil rights issues -- but not necessarily along party lines.




                                5. A segregationist congressman's attempt to kill the bill backfired
                                Virginia's Democratic Rep. Howard W. Smith was a staunch segregationist and strongly opposed the Civil Rights Act.
                                Smith, who was chairman of the House Rules Committee, came up with many tactics to discourage the passage of the bill's Title VII, which would outlaw employment discrimination because of race, color, religion or national origin.

                                When Smith added the word "sex," the House reportedly laughed out loud. The ploy was Smith's attempt to quash support among the chamber's male chauvinists on the grounds that the bill would protect women's rights in the workplace, according to Clay Risen in his book "The Bill of the Century."

                                http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/politi...resting-facts/
                                The issue was that the Democrats were actually two-parties sharing one name.

                                The northern, liberal wing, and the southern, conservative wing.

                                So for most of the 20th century the Democrats had to appease their southern Democrats to maintain their electoral domination in Congress.

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