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Should the Confederate flag be removed from SC statehouse grounds?

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  • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    You say it passionately and repeatedly, but can't prove it.

    It's almost like you're on a witch hunt to find people who want to erase history when nobody here is.

    Ironic, that.
    No, the irony is that he & his Lost Cause buddies want to erase history, specifically the reason why the Confederate states seceded & stacked the US. The states themselves couldn't have been clearer. So the 'erasing' going on here is being done by him.

    I doubt he could begin to understand the irony in all that.
    Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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    • Causers do not like history. Myth and fairy tales, half truths are more their realm of reality.
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
        Causers do not like history. Myth and fairy tales, half truths are more their realm of reality.
        Did you just create a new buzzword?
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
          A historian discusses WHAT happened,NOT who was right or wrong .And what I see hear is not a discussion of what happened, but 2 groups who are shouting insults to each other about something that ended 150 years ago .
          Then you must not have read the acts, such as the fact that Lincoln, long revered for "freeing the slaves", was in fact pro-slavery himself and did not start the Civil War over slavery.

          If you do not know know and understand the facts, you cannot determine what anyone was fighting for, or who might have been "right" or "wrong" Many people on this forum persist in believing that the Confederacy fought to preserve slavery. They fail to understand that the Confederacy was fighting for their right to make their own decisions about such things - States' Rights - a battle that continues to this day against the Federal government over such things as Obamacare, the failure of the Federal government to enforce border security and things like gay marriage.

          Don't like government over-regulation and oppression today? Blame Abe Lincoln, who fought a bloody civil wear to make that very type of government come about. Because the Constitution was originally written to allow the states a great deal of autonomy and Lincoln destroyed that without following the law of the land and without amending the Constitution, much like Obama operates today. There's considerable irony there, BTW, if you're sharp enough to grasp it - a black president following ion the footsteps of a white president who was pro-slavery.

          The other thing most people involved in this discussion do not seem to understand is the incredible double standard going on here. Want to tear down Robert E. Lee's statues? Sure, and then tear down Lincoln's while you're at it, because he expressed the same master race policy towards blacks as the Southerners did.

          Want to forcibly remove the Confederate flag? No problem...when you get done with that you can take down all of the American flags, too. Each of our symbols has negative history attached to it...none of those symbols are pure in any sense of the word.

          What I object to most is something that should bother every single person interested in history - revisionism and the altering of history to appease the politically correct.

          Is the Civil War old news"? Not if you understand the direct correlations to wars like WWI and WWII in which we forced our will onto the German nation, or Viet Nam in which we attempted to force our will upon the Vietnamese, or the current wars in the Middle East, in which America again attempts to override national sovereignty and force our will upon those nations. The Civil War was a microcosm of the wars that followed, and a great deal can still be learned from it right now, but only if you understand what you are seeing, and how it fits into history on a larger scale.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

          Comment


          • This drama over the Confederate flag convinced many to go out and buy some and now there is a shortage of Confederate flags for sale. Store shelves are bare because most think they will not be able to get them anymore.

            They may be onto something....most manufacturers have recently decided to discontinue making them.
            "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

            "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

            Comment


            • May I remind people that the OP has been answered: the flag has been removed ...by the governor of SC .

              How many of those who are discussing needlessly the OP are living in SC ? If the people of SC have decided to remove the flag,those who are opposing the removal of the flag have no point : they only want to restart the Civil War.

              If the people of SC decide to keep the flag, the "foreigners" (= not South Caroliners) should respect the decision,otherwise they can be suspected to be only interested into restarting the Civil War .

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                May I remind people that the OP has been answered: the flag has been removed ...by the governor of SC .

                How many of those who are discussing needlessly the OP are living in SC ? If the people of SC have decided to remove the flag,those who are opposing the removal of the flag have no point : they only want to restart the Civil War.

                If the people of SC decide to keep the flag, the "foreigners" (= not South Caroliners) should respect the decision,otherwise they can be suspected to be only interested into restarting the Civil War .
                No, it has not, that was Alabama. Only the State Legislature of SC has the authority to do anything about or with the Flag flying on the Capital Grounds. Only commitment so far is to take up debate on the issue.
                “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                “To talk of many things:
                Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                Of cabbages—and kings—
                And why the sea is boiling hot—
                And whether pigs have wings.”
                ― Lewis Carroll

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Then you must not have read the acts, such as the fact that Lincoln, long revered for "freeing the slaves", was in fact pro-slavery himself and did not start the Civil War over slavery.

                  <SNIP>

                  Lincoln was not pro-slavery - he was pretty clear on that point. I think that it would be more accurate to say that he did not think that he, as president, had the power to end slavery. Certainly, this view of presidential powers does not make him "pro-slavery."
                  Last edited by guthrieba; 25 Jun 15, 12:15. Reason: Fix editting issues
                  Don't leave good whiskey for the damn Yankees!" John Hunt Morgan, Eagleport, Ohio, July 23, 1863

                  Comment


                  • As I have noted earlier, I have argued for almost ten years that the Battle Flag should be taken down on the State House grounds, and I certainly agree that the South Carolina legislature has the power and authority to do so.

                    I also think that commercial and industrial enterprises have the power to determine what products they may purvey and manufacture.

                    I think, though, that this present imbroglio is about something else (yes, I have a keen grasp of the obvious).

                    Apple has announced that it will not carry Civil War games in its App Store.

                    Respected journalists have speculated as to whether the Jefferson Memorial should be pulled down.

                    I guess we need diversity in all things, save opinion and thought.
                    Don't leave good whiskey for the damn Yankees!" John Hunt Morgan, Eagleport, Ohio, July 23, 1863

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Persephone View Post
                      This drama over the Confederate flag convinced many to go out and buy some and now there is a shortage of Confederate flags for sale. Store shelves are bare because most think they will not be able to get them anymore.

                      They may be onto something....most manufacturers have recently decided to discontinue making them.
                      More haters and division as a result.
                      My worst jump story:
                      My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                      As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                      No lie.

                      ~
                      "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                      -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by guthrieba View Post
                        Lincoln was not pro-slavery - he was pretty clear on that point. I think that it would be more accurate to say that he did not think that he, as president, had the power to end slavery. Certainly, this view of presidential powers does not make him "pro-slavery."
                        That's exactly what Pres Lincoln said at his first inaugural: that the Constitution did not empower the executive to unilaterally tamper with slavery in the states where slavery was legal. I reproduced that quote at length earlier in this thread.

                        Originally posted by guthrieba View Post
                        As I have noted earlier, I have argued for almost ten years that the Battle Flag should be taken down on the State House grounds, and I certainly agree that the South Carolina legislature has the power and authority to do so.

                        I also think that commercial and industrial enterprises have the power to determine what products they may purvey and manufacture.

                        I think, though, that this present imbroglio is about something else (yes, I have a keen grasp of the obvious).

                        Apple has announced that it will not carry Civil War games in its App Store.

                        Respected journalists have speculated as to whether the Jefferson Memorial should be pulled down.

                        I guess we need diversity in all things, save opinion and thought.
                        The People of the State of South Carolina, through the agency of their elected officials, will decide whether or not their government institutions will fly the CSA colors, as doing so is, in fact, an official act. If they're asking my personal opinion, I think that they should vote to cease that practice, for reasons stated throughout this thread. If they choose the opposite course, then that is their right, and I think that agitating in order to force them to change their vote is tantamount to bullying: something I neither condone nor will I participate in such an act.

                        Retailers and distributors and manufacturers should be subject to the marketplace alone, not the braying of the bullying masses. Politics and public opinion should have no weight on purely business decisions. For example, the very people who might -- might, not have -- protest Wal-Mart for carrying CSA colors, for example, are the same people who have been protesting against Wal-Mart all along. Those people are not filling Wal-Mart's till, so Wal-Mart should ignore them. If they can organize a successful boycott against Wal-Mart, then more power to them, since boycotts have a pretty poor record of doing anything throughout US history; mostly they're ignored.

                        Succumbing to the threats of the angry mob was exactly what John Adams endeavored against when he took on the defense of the British soldiers accused in the Boston Massacre. He was right then, to maintain that public order is a higher priority than spleen-venting, and were he here today, he'd say the same again now.
                        I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by guthrieba View Post
                          I guess we need diversity in all things, save opinion and thought.
                          I shall seek solace in this:



                          "Shoot for the epaulets, boys! Shoot for the epaulets!" - Daniel Morgan

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                            That's fine. If they can muster enough political clout to get the country to change the flag, more power to them. Not going to happen but this adds to the various fantasy constructs you keep throwing at the wall and hoping that one sticks. Keep it up, very amusing.
                            BTW, what was the flag used on slave ships transporting blacks to the United States?
                            My worst jump story:
                            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                            No lie.

                            ~
                            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                              BTW, what was the flag used on slave ships transporting blacks to the United States?
                              Immaterial, keep slinging however.
                              “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                              “To talk of many things:
                              Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                              Of cabbages—and kings—
                              And why the sea is boiling hot—
                              And whether pigs have wings.”
                              ― Lewis Carroll

                              Comment


                              • I guess that the one thing that I don't understand is how removing the Battle Flag from the State House Grounds would have had any impact on the church shooting.

                                I suppose that it is simply time for a truly futile and meaningless gesture.
                                Don't leave good whiskey for the damn Yankees!" John Hunt Morgan, Eagleport, Ohio, July 23, 1863

                                Comment

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