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Should the Confederate flag be removed from SC statehouse grounds?

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  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMgordJC0xg&NR=1
    "Why is the Rum gone?"

    -Captain Jack

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    • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
      No one is banning anything. You still can grasp that can you.
      Obviously you haven't been reading my comments. Not a problem but any legislation to restrict it's use will likely contain prohibitive language. If as the governor of Alabama has done it were to be quietly removed without opposition from public places, not related to history, that would be my preference.
      We hunt the hunters

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      • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
        If he was white he would be labeled a "racist."
        He's not white,he's not black.
        What's the color of dumbness?
        Light grey?Soft brown?
        That rug really tied the room together

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        • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
          What? The KKK was all over the US, to include the north, west, and east.
          In the 1920s? Yes, the Klan almost certainly boasted at least one chapter in each of the 48 states, but that came to a screeching end with DC Stephensons's rape and murder of a white girl in 1925. In the 1870s? No, the Klan was restricted to the states of the Confederacy, as it was a response to Reconstruction policies and the preponderance of vagrants and drifters throughout the South. 1950s, 1960s? Probably not, for among other reasons Stetson Kennedy's outing of secret Klan rituals during Superman broadcasts made the KKK look rather ridiculous in the minds of many, especially those not raised in a Klan culture. Strangely enough, the Klan did enjoy some growth in northern states during the 1980s.

          Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
          “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

          by:

          Abraham Lincoln

          Go ahead and tell me all about it, but don't forget that several Union states continued to allow slavery until 1865. Therefore, the American flag must be taken down also.
          Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible. Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined. Though Mr. Lincoln shared the prejudices of his white fellow-countrymen against the negro, it is hardly necessary to say that in his heart of hearts he loathed and hated slavery.

          "Douglass on Lincoln," by Frederick Douglass, The New York Times, 22 Apr 1876
          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
          That and technology...
          You missed my mention of the Rust Bros' mechanical picker -- brought to market in the 1950s.

          Perhaps US Grant should have the second to last word on this:

          I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse.

          The last word -- or rather, action, as was consistent with his character -- should go Gen Robert E Lee:

          In his recent work Robert E. Lee: A Biography (1995), Emory Thomas records a little known incident in Lee's life that speaks volumes about both the man and the way he continues to play a "christ-like" role for many. Shortly after the end of the War, Lee attended communion at St. Paul's Church. It's "list of communicants read like a Who's Who of the Confederacy." When the invitation to come forward and receive communion was given,

          "a tall-well dressed, black man stood and strode to the rail. There followed a pregnant pause. According to one witness, "Its effects upon the communicants was startling, and for several moments they retained their seats in solemn silence and did not move, being deeply chagrined at this attempt to inaugurate the 'new regime' to offend and humiliate them...". Then another person rose from the pew and walked down the aisle to the chancel rail. He knelt near the black man and so redeemed the circumstance. This grace- bringer, of course was Lee. Soon after he knelt, the rest of the congregation followed his example and shuffled in turn to the rail...Lee's actions were far more eloquent than anything he spoke or wrote." (Thomas, p. 372.)
          The war is over, and the Confederacy's leading general officer thought nothing at taking the Holy Eucharist alongside a black man -- a century and a half ago. When are the rest of us going to learn from his exceptional example already?
          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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          • "A master race improves upon itself, and practices as severe a drill as it subjects it's inferiors to. The gentlemen of the South are better horsemen, better marksmen, have more physical strenght and activity, and can endure more fatigue than their slaves. Besides, they have the lofty sentiments and high morals of a master race, that would render them unconquerable. Their times is occupied in governing their slaves and managing their farms, they are slaves themselves to their duties, and have no taste for that prurient love of licentious liberty which has depraved and demoralized free society."

            George Fitzhugh De Bow's Review on the eve of the Civil War

            If it sounds like something out of 1938 Germany it is no coincidence. The inclination to impose your will on others is a necessary first step in supporting a military solution to an economic conflict. While many authors have tried to dispel the "myth" of a militarist South it is clear the myth itself was alive and well within the South. The overconfidence in the superiority of the Southern white male is as much a factor in the tragedy of the Civil War as a similar sentiment was to the destruction of Germany.

            The morality or immorality of war is not the question. That there was a considerable proclivity of all American's to use war as a political tool needs no other evidence than the War with Mexico that preceded the Civil War. Their is however a considerable difference between believing you can win a war based on rational analysis and faith in your ability to win wars based on delusions of moral superiority as members of a master race.

            We are not asking that the confederate battle flag be removed because of the moral superiority of the North but because it represents the horrible tragedy that resulted from the belief in the "moral" superiority of Southern "gentlemen".
            We hunt the hunters

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            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              In case you didn't notice, this is a history forum. If you don't feel that history is relevant any longer, what are you doing here?
              A historian discusses WHAT happened,NOT who was right or wrong .And what I see hear is not a discussion of what happened, but 2 groups who are shouting insults to each other about something that ended 150 years ago .

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              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                A historian discusses WHAT happened,NOT who was right or wrong .And what I see hear is not a discussion of what happened, but 2 groups who are shouting insults to each other about something that ended 150 years ago .
                Oh HELL yes!

                It makes the Russians seem rational, they only ballyhoo endlessly about a war that ended 70 years ago.
                "Why is the Rum gone?"

                -Captain Jack

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                  Oh HELL yes!

                  It makes the Russians seem rational, they only ballyhoo endlessly about a war that ended 70 years ago.
                  On a historical point if view I agree. Facts are facts whether the actions involved were right or wrong.


                  However, I think we can all agree slavery is wrong morally in our current times. The Confederate battle flag in question should be kept at all museums, memorials, and anywhere else that is historically significant whether it's government property or not. Privately people should have the right to own and display it if they like. However, I do not think our government needs to officially fly a flag that was the source of slavery and rebellion.

                  Can we agree on this?
                  First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                    A historian discusses WHAT happened,NOT who was right or wrong .And what I see hear is not a discussion of what happened, but 2 groups who are shouting insults to each other about something that ended 150 years ago .
                    Why study history if you are not going to learn from it?

                    I agree that as the Mods have warned us to stop the personal attacks against each other and get back to history we have an obligation to do so. This is not a democracy here on the forums but like in a democracy and to the extent that we have free speech people will get passionate about their beliefs. It's pretty easy to ignore the insults and the passions and carry on talking to people who have interesting points to make. That doesn't mean that the rules can be ignored but I will not be the first one to complain when a little latitude is given.
                    We hunt the hunters

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                    • Ah: you think that mankind will learn from history ?

                      70 years ago WWII ended (50 million dead) ,since then millions and millions have been killed and murdered in dozens of wars over the whole world .

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                      • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                        Why study history if you are not going to learn from it?

                        I agree that as the Mods have warned us to stop the personal attacks against each other and get back to history we have an obligation to do so. This is not a democracy here on the forums but like in a democracy and to the extent that we have free speech people will get passionate about their beliefs. It's pretty easy to ignore the insults and the passions and carry on talking to people who have interesting points to make. That doesn't mean that the rules can be ignored but I will not be the first one to complain when a little latitude is given.
                        Why to get passionate about something that ended 150 years ago ?

                        Do you think that people in Spain are still passionate about the Civil War? That the Irish are still passionate about their Civil War ?That people in Nigeria are still passionate about the Secession War in Biafra ? That the Germans are still passionate about their civil war of 1866 ?

                        And a history discussion (especially about something that happened 150 years ago) should not be about beliefs but about facts :if one wants to use beliefs, one should discuss UFO's :some people believe that they exist .

                        A historian should lock up his beliefs when he is writing a book .Beliefs are for politicians and such people and we know where the beliefs of politicians are leading us.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          Why to get passionate about something that ended 150 years ago ?

                          Do you think that people in Spain are still passionate about the Civil War? That the Irish are still passionate about their Civil War ?That people in Nigeria are still passionate about the Secession War in Biafra ? That the Germans are still passionate about their civil war of 1866 ?

                          And a history discussion (especially about something that happened 150 years ago) should not be about beliefs but about facts :if one wants to use beliefs, one should discuss UFO's :some people believe that they exist .

                          A historian should lock up his beliefs when he is writing a book .Beliefs are for politicians and such people and we know where the beliefs of politicians are leading us.
                          I understand your point but the passion is itself an historically relevant topic.
                          We hunt the hunters

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                          • So predictable. (Drudge this morning.)

                            NEW BLACK PANTHER: 'FINISH THE MISSION, KILL SLAVE MASTERS'...





                            FARRAKHAN: 'WE NEED TO PUT THE AMERICAN FLAG DOWN'



                            “Breaking News,”

                            “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

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                            • It will be next bad white boy!
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Only because Lincoln made it so. In retrospect, The Civil War was unnecessary, but Lincoln refused to respect the right of the States to govern themselves and forced a war to force their compliance. Guess that makes Lincoln one of the greatest mass murderers in American history. Like I said, it's going to be a tearing down that monument but it has to be done.

                                As for "the greatest threat we have ever faced in history", he's sitting in the Oval Office.
                                Why is it always the people who defend the Confederacy & therefore slavery always have the biggest issue with a black man in the White House. Guess some folk just long for the 'good old days'.
                                Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

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