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Should the Confederate flag be removed from SC statehouse grounds?

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  • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
    Article I

    <snip>
    Thanks!

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    • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
      Slavery would have eventually ended in the CSA...
      Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

      I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?

      http://www.civilwarhome.com/leepierce.html
      In Jan 1865, as Grant's siege around Petersburg effectively was strangling Richmond, Gen Lee requested that the CSA actively recruit fit male slaves, and offer them their freedom in exchange for military service. Here is reproduced a response to Lee's request -- penned by one of Lee's own subordinates -- sent outside the chain of command directly to the CSA's Secretary of War:

      . . . . I think that the proposition to make soldiers of our slaves is the most pernicious idea that has been suggested since the war began. It is to me a source of deep mortification and regret to see the name of that good and great man and soldier, General R. E. Lee, given as authority for such a policy. My first hour of despondency will be the one in which that policy shall be adopted. . . . .

      If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong . . . .

      Letter of Brig Gen Howell Cobb to Sec of War James A Seddon, 8 Jan 1865, courtesy Jubilo! The Emancipation Century
      Slavery certainly would have ended in the South -- just not in Gen Lee's lifetime: the resistance of his own compatriots would have been too much for men like Lee to overcome. Subsequent events proved exactly when slavery would have ended had not the Civil War intervened: roughly the 1950s, when John Daniel and Mack Donald Rust's mechanical cotton picker became both technologically capable and economically feasible. Then and only then were millions of sharecroppers and tenant farmers rendered redundant and released from their obligations Down South.
      Last edited by slick_miester; 24 Jun 15, 16:44. Reason: I can't do grammar. D'oh!
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

      Comment


      • Since the failure to divide the country due to the racist nut that shot up the bible study, the attack on the Confederate Battle Flag as racist is the current rage. This attack has expanded to license plates as well as State Flags containing those symbols.

        What is next?

        Already there are calls to remove statues of famous Confederate war heros as racist as well as towns and landmarks named after those individuals. If successful, will there be calls to remove the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves? Remove the Washington Monument and rename Washington DC because George Washington was also a slave owner?

        Where does this purge end?
        “Breaking News,”

        “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
          Since the failure to divide the country due to the racist nut that shot up the bible study, the attack on the Confederate Battle Flag as racist is the current rage. This attack has expanded to license plates as well as State Flags containing those symbols.

          What is next?

          Already there are calls to remove statues of famous Confederate war heros as racist as well as towns and landmarks named after those individuals. If successful, will there be calls to remove the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves? Remove the Washington Monument and rename Washington DC because George Washington was also a slave owner?

          Where does this purge end?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
            The confederacy doesn't exist anymore - those states still exist. Would you be fine with your local government flying the flag of Nazi Germany in front of its government building on the justification that for a fear years they controlled Belgium?
            Wrong comparison : the southern flag was not flying in NY or Pennsylvania,but in SC one of the seceded states : thus,would I be fine if the Nazi flag was flying in Germany ? I would not care,as would not most people in Belgium .

            Better comparison would be : would an inhabitant of Massachusetts be fine if the state government was flying the Union Jack on the justification that Britain controlled Massachusetts for a long time ?

            May I also add that the only people who should discuss the question are the inhabitants of SC,because the flag was flying in SC since more than 50 years and that I don't see why people want to refight the Civil War .WHO ENDED 150 YEARS AGO .

            No one in Europe is interested about WWI (100 years ago) neither in WWII (75 years ago) .People are going farther with their live,it seems that some people in the US are unable/unwilling to do the same .

            The South lost,the result was that secession was illegal .If the South had not lost,the secession would be legal .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
              Wrong comparison : the southern flag was not flying in NY or Pennsylvania,but in SC one of the seceded states : thus,would I be fine if the Nazi flag was flying in Germany ? I would not care,as would not most people in Belgium .

              Better comparison would be : would an inhabitant of Massachusetts be fine if the state government was flying the Union Jack on the justification that Britain controlled Massachusetts for a long time ?

              May I also add that the only people who should discuss the question are the inhabitants of SC,because the flag was flying in SC since more than 50 years and that I don't see why people want to refight the Civil War .WHO ENDED 150 YEARS AGO .

              No one in Europe is interested about WWI (100 years ago) neither in WWII (75 years ago) .People are going farther with their live,it seems that some people in the US are unable/unwilling to do the same .

              The South lost,the result was that secession was illegal .If the South had not lost,the secession would be legal .
              In case you didn't notice, this is a history forum. If you don't feel that history is relevant any longer, what are you doing here?
              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

              Comment


              • Hi

                Despite any historical debate, the flag here & now is overtly divisive to a large segment of American society.

                If people want to fly any flag within their property boundaries and co-currant with zoning laws etc, then by all means do so, and live with any consequences that follow.
                I often fly the Cross of St George if I'm home in the US on April 23rd, its the only day that the Stars n Stripes is below another flag, along with the Queens official birthday in June. Many of my neighbours haven't a clue what it represents but I explain thats it's much like when many Irish-Americans bring out their tricolours to celebrate St Patricks Day

                However, when it comes to State property I would be against such divisive flags being allowed.

                Regards

                Andy H
                "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                Comment


                • Hi

                  Apologies if this has already been posted, but it seems the Governor of Alabama has made up his mind, and took their flag down:-

                  http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/p...emoved-capitol

                  Regards

                  Andy H
                  "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                  "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                    No it did not. Not in either case.
                    1. If Virginia outlawed slavery, the CSA constitution protected the rights of non-Virginian slaveholders traveling through or visiting (sojourning in) Virginia.
                    2. From my prior post... "While new territories and States were required to recognize and protect slavery upon admission, nothing in the CSA constitution prohibited them from ending the practice within their respective states."


                    The initial conditions were set to slavery; however, the CSA constitution clearly guaranteed each State sovereignty.
                    Prohibiting Slavery means not allowing slavery. Transits and visiting with slaves is not a prohibition of slavery.
                    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                    “To talk of many things:
                    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                    Of cabbages—and kings—
                    And why the sea is boiling hot—
                    And whether pigs have wings.”
                    ― Lewis Carroll

                    Comment


                    • GOP governor of Alabama orders the Confederate Battle flag at a memorial on the Capital grounds take down, for good.

                      http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/201...oved_from.html

                      On the order of Gov. Robert Bentley, the Confederate battle flag which stands at the foot of the confederate memorial on the state Capitol grounds was taken down this morning.
                      Moments later Gov. Bentley emerged from the Capitol on his way to an appearance in Hackleburg. Asked if he had ordered the flag taken down, the governor said, "Yes I did."
                      Asked his reasons for taking it down and if it included what happened in Charleston last week, the governor said, "Yes, partially this is about that. This is the right thing to do. We are facing some major issues in this state regarding the budget and other matters that we need to deal with.
                      “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
                      “To talk of many things:
                      Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
                      Of cabbages—and kings—
                      And why the sea is boiling hot—
                      And whether pigs have wings.”
                      ― Lewis Carroll

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                        I can't see it, sorry. Who is keeping you from using the n-word but allowing rappers to use it? And how does that relate to the confederate flag being flown in front of the SC state house? Is it that if rappers want to be free to use something like the n-word then we should be free to use something similar like the confederate flag?
                        If the N-word doesn't hurt feeling than surely the flag doesn't either, and if it does I don't see anyone jumping off a bridge over it. This is just about ignorant people making an issue about nothing, same as in the past. Look at the Snapple label and the Sambo fairy tale... that they complained about.... what a joke. Causing problems seems to be a past time among many.
                        My worst jump story:
                        My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                        As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                        No lie.

                        ~
                        "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                        -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
                          Prohibiting Slavery means not allowing slavery. Transits and visiting with slaves is not a prohibition of slavery.
                          Prohibition of slavery in some Confederate States was clearly envisioned... Otherwise there would have been no need for a fugitive slave clause.

                          US States which had prohibited slavery were still subject to the fugitive slave clause of the US Constitutiion prior to 1865.
                          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post
                            Since the failure to divide the country due to the racist nut that shot up the bible study, the attack on the Confederate Battle Flag as racist is the current rage. This attack has expanded to license plates as well as State Flags containing those symbols.

                            What is next?

                            Already there are calls to remove statues of famous Confederate war heros as racist as well as towns and landmarks named after those individuals. If successful, will there be calls to remove the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves? Remove the Washington Monument and rename Washington DC because George Washington was also a slave owner?

                            Where does this purge end?
                            When we remove the Racist-in-Chief from the White House.
                            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              Well, why don't we just take it from the horse's mouth, shall we.



                              Alexander Stephens may have been a lot of things, but an utter idiot wasn't one of them. He knew full well what underpinned slavery's importance, and it wasn't the negro's "natural condition":



                              Let me guess: VP Stephens was lying, or he was talking to a canned audience, or he was ignorant of his country's interests, or he was ignorant of his own government's founding principles.

                              Or how about the reaction to the proposal of Patrick Cleburn, Maj Gen CSA, that the CSA counter the propaganda value of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation and simultaneously prove the overarching importance of the principle of states' rights -- by emancipating the South's slaves herself, and enlisting them in the CSA army:

                              - emphasis mine

                              These are the facts, and these are the words of the Confederacy's own leaders. Are they not good enough for you? Do they not prove that the South's overwhelming motive for seceding was to preserve slavery? That when all the chaff was blown away, that maintaining slavery -- and preserving the political, social, and economic positions that slavery conferred upon slave owners -- it was really their only reason?
                              “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”

                              by:

                              Abraham Lincoln


                              Go ahead and tell me all about it, but don't forget that several Union states continued to allow slavery until 1865. Therefore, the American flag must be taken down also.
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                                This is absolutely correct.

                                The south seceded and started the war over slavery - they did not want to lose their slaves and were fearful of what Lincoln would do. There was no other issue that could have motivated them to take up arms and attack federal property and bombard federal soldiers.

                                But the war was not phrased in terms of freeing slaves. In the north the justification was restoration of the Union. Only later in the war did any discussion of emancipatory blacks enter into the discussion of the war, but for most of the men who fought and died for the United States it was Union, not emancipation, for which they were risking their lives.

                                Good post, M.
                                And can you tell us when slavery was outlawed?
                                My worst jump story:
                                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                                No lie.

                                ~
                                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                                Comment

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