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Should the Confederate flag be removed from SC statehouse grounds?

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  • Originally posted by Charger View Post
    Wow...just wow.

    You need to spend some serious time studying the aftermath of the war on the Southern states.
    I have. Reality vs Myth.

    List all the cities in the South. List the percentage destroyed by union forces, as opposed to retreating southern forces such as in Richmond.

    List Northern losses vs Southern losses.

    List Civilian Losses. List causes.

    facts, not platitudes.
    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
    “To talk of many things:
    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
    Of cabbages—and kings—
    And why the sea is boiling hot—
    And whether pigs have wings.”
    ― Lewis Carroll

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
      Texas vs White determined that unilateral secession was and is unconstitutional. The southern states might have thought they had that right before the war, as the issue has not yet been settled by a Supreme Court ruling, but their decision means that in actuality the southern states were acting unconstitutionally.

      If I am not mistaken, only way for their secession to be constitutional now would be for an amendment to allow it or for there to be another Supreme Court ruling to counter the first.
      Texas v. White is current law, but it wasn't law at the time.

      Further, it was an incorrect decision that was (obviously) colored by the war.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
        As I've ask in many of these threads, if States Rights were so important how come the Confederate Constitution STRIPPED the right to end slavery from the very states that joined it?
        The Confederate constitution allowed any three States to call for a constitutional convention and amendments only required 2/3 of the States for ratification.
        ARTICLE V

        Section I. (I) Upon the demand of any three States, legally assembled in their several conventions, the Congress shall summon a convention of all the States, to take into consideration such amendments to the Constitution as the said States shall concur in suggesting at the time when the said demand is made; and should any of the proposed amendments to the Constitution be agreed on by the said convention, voting by States, and the same be ratified by the Legislatures of two- thirds of the several States, or by conventions in two-thirds thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the general convention, they shall thenceforward form a part of this Constitution. But no State shall, without its consent, be deprived of its equal representation in the Senate.

        http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp


        It was easier to constitutionally end slavery under the CSA constitution than it was under the US Constitution,
        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
          It was certainly no more hypocritical a stance than the slaveowners': "we own slaves for their own good; they're happier in bondage you know."
          Many Southerners certainly kept that attitude for a very long time even after they lost their slaves. It's funny how bitter some of them are about losing the right to hold people in chains. But they did their best to keep blacks oppressed up until the current living generation - and the confederate flag was a symbol that blacks wouldn't be tolerated as the equal of whites when it was first placed in front of those government buildings in the 60s.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
            I have. Reality vs Myth.

            List all the cities in the South. List the percentage destroyed by union forces, as opposed to retreating southern forces such as in Richmond.

            List Northern losses vs Southern losses.

            List Civilian Losses. List causes.

            facts, not platitudes.
            I will be more than happy to attempt to tally up the destruction of the South, but it will have to wait until tonight when I have time to do it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
              The Confederate constitution allowed any three States to call for a constitutional convention and amendments only required 2/3 of the States for ratification.
              ARTICLE V

              Section I. (I) Upon the demand of any three States, legally assembled in their several conventions, the Congress shall summon a convention of all the States, to take into consideration such amendments to the Constitution as the said States shall concur in suggesting at the time when the said demand is made; and should any of the proposed amendments to the Constitution be agreed on by the said convention, voting by States, and the same be ratified by the Legislatures of two- thirds of the several States, or by conventions in two-thirds thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the general convention, they shall thenceforward form a part of this Constitution. But no State shall, without its consent, be deprived of its equal representation in the Senate.

              http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp


              It was easier to constitutionally end slavery under the CSA constitution than it was under the US Constitution,
              Under the US constitution ANY state could choose to eliminate slavery, whenever it wanted to, yes or no?

              Could a state in the Confederacy do so any time and in any manner, yes or no.

              Simple answers.

              It's called STATES RIGHTS.... and yet they blatantly STRIPPED that right in their new country. Why?
              “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
              “To talk of many things:
              Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
              Of cabbages—and kings—
              And why the sea is boiling hot—
              And whether pigs have wings.”
              ― Lewis Carroll

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Charger View Post
                Texas v. White is current law, but it wasn't law at the time.

                Further, it was an incorrect decision that was (obviously) colored by the war.
                It is current law - meaning it is the correct interpretation of the constitution.

                If I raise a case with the Supreme Court over constitutional matters, their decision decides whether or not my interpretation was ever correct. They act to clarify, and clarify they did - unilateral secession is unconstitutional.

                When the confederacy seceded, they were wrong in thinking the constitution gave them the right to secede. It turns out that no, they don't have that right.

                Comment


                • As an aside.

                  Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                  It was certainly no more hypocritical a stance than the slaveowners': "we own slaves for their own good; they're happier in bondage you know."
                  Slaves were many times treated way better than the industrial workers in the North (note that I do not defend slavery) the slave owner was responsible for his slaves. He had to provide healthcare for them, he had to cloth them, he had to house them and he had to feed them, whereas the workers up north was replaceable at a whim. There was plenty of workers to go around pouring into New York from the Old world.

                  Again, not defending slavery here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Charger View Post
                    Of course.
                    If that had been the case what would have become of the CSA and the US?
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                      It is current law - meaning it is the correct interpretation of the constitution.

                      If I raise a case with the Supreme Court over constitutional matters, their decision decides whether or not my interpretation was ever correct. They act to clarify, and clarify they did - unilateral secession is unconstitutional.

                      When the confederacy seceded, they were wrong in thinking the constitution gave them the right to secede. It turns out that no, they don't have that right.
                      Judicial infallibility, eh? Now that's a good one

                      Plessy v. Ferguson says hello

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by walle View Post
                        As an aside.

                        Slaves were many times treated way better than the industrial workers in the North (note that I do not defend slavery) the slave owner was responsible for his slaves. He had to provide healthcare for them, he had to cloth them, he had to house them and he had to feed them, whereas the workers up north was replaceable at a whim. There was plenty of workers to go around pouring into New York from the Old world.

                        Again, not defending slavery here.
                        Could that northern worker quit and change jobs? Did he have to fear that his children were sold, never to be seen again?
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                          Texas vs White determined that unilateral secession was and is unconstitutional. The southern states might have thought they had that right before the war, as the issue has not yet been settled by a Supreme Court ruling, but their decision means that in actuality the southern states were acting unconstitutionally.

                          If I am not mistaken, only way for their secession to be constitutional now would be for an amendment to allow it or for there to be another Supreme Court ruling to counter the first.
                          Texas v White was post hoc law, not applicable in 1860.

                          The ruling was riddled with non sequitur arguments like this one...
                          It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation.

                          Texas v White

                          The Court ruled that secession was possible via two mechanisms...
                          The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.
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                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charger View Post
                            They were fighting to be their own country. I cannot believe this is so difficult to understand for some people.
                            Which was done so so they could continue to hold people in bondage. What is so hard to understand about that?

                            The confederacy killed Americans so it could keep blacks in chains. And yet people want to believe in the Lost Cause mythos of states rights and freedom - when it all comes back to not wanting to give up their human chattel.

                            The confederacy claims they were fighting for rights, when really they were fighting to protect the continued denial of rights to human beings. They wanted to be free to deny freedom to others.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                              Texas v White was post hoc law, not applicable in 1860.

                              The ruling was riddled with non sequitur arguments like this one...
                              It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation.

                              Texas v White

                              The Court ruled that secession was possible via two mechanisms...
                              The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.
                              Which means unilateral secession is unconstitutional, correct?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charger View Post
                                Judicial infallibility, eh? Now that's a good one

                                Plessy v. Ferguson says hello
                                Hey, if you're going to argue legality and constitutionality, then you can't cherry pick what you will accept and what you will ignore.

                                Comment

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