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  • You know what I meant.
    First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

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    • Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
      I decline to live in a world ruled by magic and superstition.
      What if it isn't?

      I'm something of a cynic. I choose to believe in God because it is logical and it is better to believe in a Divine Power and find out there isn't one, than not to believe and find out there is.

      That would be one of the biggest errors in any life.

      You can believe or not believe what you want. And if you have a problem with those that do believe, that's a personal problem that you shouldn't inflict on others.

      Get over yourself.

      Sincerely,
      M
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Massena View Post
        What if it isn't?

        I'm something of a cynic. I choose to believe in God because it is logical and it is better to believe in a Divine Power and find out there isn't one, than not to believe and find out there is.

        That would be one of the biggest errors in any life.

        You can believe or not believe what you want. And if you have a problem with those that do believe, that's a personal problem that you shouldn't inflict on others.

        Get over yourself.

        Sincerely,
        M
        You may wish to rethink your views then. Google Pasquale's Wager. Betting Christianity is real is actually a bad bet as there are thousands of religions that could be real as well. So the chance you're right is minuscule. Also, believing in a religion only for the gain is a selfish act and that is one of the worst reasons to believe.

        I was where you were a few years ago until I researched and found myself in error.
        First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
          I decline to live in a world ruled by magic and superstition.
          Who says you have to?

          You aren't anti-religion, you are anti-faith.

          You can't be anti-religion, as atheism is your religion.

          I'm personally anti-religion. I have faith though. I believe in a greater power, though I'm not sure what it is. I call it God for convenience.

          One last edit: Despite my varying levels of faith, one thing always rings true for me : I will choose free will.
          Last edited by Gixxer86g; 13 Jun 15, 15:39.
          ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

          BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

          BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
            You may wish to rethink your views then. Google Pasquale's Wager. Betting Christianity is real is actually a bad bet as there are thousands of religions that could be real as well. So the chance you're right is minuscule. Also, believing in a religion only for the gain is a selfish act and that is one of the worst reasons to believe.

            I was where you were a few years ago until I researched and found myself in error.
            'Researched' what?

            Belief in the Almighty and any religion is based on faith, not research.

            Sincerely,
            M
            We are not now that strength which in old days
            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

            Comment


            • Your stated reasons for belief are relevant to Pasquale's Wager. Take a look. Why accept something without proof?
              First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

              Comment


              • Perhaps, but I see no need to believe in something without proof. If some sort of evidence or proof comes along I'll change my views. However, until that time there isn't any reason to believe in a god or gods.

                I would like to believe aliens exist, but without proof any such statement would be false. Do you understand my view?
                First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Delenda estRoma View Post
                  I would like to believe aliens exist, but without proof any such statement would be false. Do you understand my view?
                  Can you demonstrate on our scale that aliens exist as I can demonstrate on our scale that thoughts create?

                  Which brings us back to my previous post.

                  If we take absolute morality as an example here, you have that just as I do but neither of us need to believe in God in order to have it, it's a part of our makeup, because we are all part of something larger, a.k.a. God, of that consciousnesses if you will, all of us are individual parts of that very same consciousnesses, yet we have our own individual experience here. So it would make sense that absolute morality would not be dependent on any belief. You follow me? I'm a bit tired been working all night.
                  Last edited by walle; 13 Jun 15, 18:24.

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                  • I actually don't follow you. We don't need some sort of creator to instill morals into us. Otherwise, why would we have people who literally lack morals? Some serial killers have been proven to lack the ability to determine right and wrong or even feel emotions at all. Again, no evidence a creator/s were involved. These are psychological things.
                    First Counsul Maleketh of Jonov

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Michele View Post

                      For instance, it's still in the holy book of Christians that one should not let a witch live, but fortunately, unless one considers extremely rare cases due to individual insanity, persecution of supposed witches is a thing of the past as far as Christians go.

                      What is written or not in the holy texts does not make much difference to me; what counts is that overwhelming majorities of Muslims in large Muslim countries very much favor such a solution. That is the real problem, the believers' behavior, I don't care one puff of hot air whether the Koran orders this or not; what counts is what the present-day Muslims want and do.
                      A significant number of the witch hunts in Africa have been linked to the rise in evangelical, Pentecostal and revivalist Christianity. The role of some of these churches has long been documented. But why worry about facts I suppose.

                      http://mgafrica.com/article/2014-08-...dern-invention

                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_324943.html

                      http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...gh.theobserver

                      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/575178.stm

                      There are a number of reasons why this happens but it is a widespread and growing problem around the world. It happens among people of different religious backgrounds - including Christians.
                      Last edited by Sergio; 14 Jun 15, 05:53.
                      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                      G.B Shaw

                      "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                      Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                        What if it isn't?

                        I'm something of a cynic. I choose to believe in God because it is logical and it is better to believe in a Divine Power and find out there isn't one, than not to believe and find out there is.

                        That would be one of the biggest errors in any life.

                        You can believe or not believe what you want. And if you have a problem with those that do believe, that's a personal problem that you shouldn't inflict on others.

                        Get over yourself.

                        Sincerely,
                        M
                        Are you a Muslim, Hindu, Parsee, Sikh or Jewish? Why not Vodoo or anyone of the other faiths? Why Christianity?
                        "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                        G.B Shaw

                        "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                        Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                        Comment


                        • We could go about deconstructing any of the religions found in the world but it is Judaism that is in question here. It's not a question of singling out Judaism it's a question of justifying ethnicity as a workable foundation for a modern state.

                          I know Jewish people from the United States that see Israel as a refuge if persecution should again plague people of Jewish descent. This issue of past persecution has a distorting effect on the issue of right of return and is somewhat unique. Constant warfare in the area however makes Israel as a safe haven for Jews, at least from a humanitarian perspective somewhat questionable.

                          While there are other places in the world where tribal rights are an issue the situation in Israel is distorted by the obvious fact that the Palestinians would have the same rights as displaced natives elsewhere. The decision as to who's rights supersede was made by Rome many centuries ago. The Roman decision to dissolve Israel and Judaea and rename it palestine ended the Jewish state. Surely the same legal standard of adverse possession applies here as it would anywhere else in the civilized world. In my country and state title passes to anyone holding property for more 20 years so surely 2000 years is a precedent.

                          The same legal precedent of adverse possession now seems to legitimize the New State of Israel. There should however be no confusion over that legitimacy being bestowed based on religious myths. Legal systems based on mythology may be appropriate for tribal societies but are woefully inadequate to protect human rights in a modern society. Those rights being laid out in the UN declaration on human rights.

                          The fact that there are worse examples of legal systems based on mythology is not relevant to the discussion. Israel should abandon all religious pretensions based solely on the almost universal concept of freedom from religious discrimination. The irony that Israels enemies saw fit to enact their own human rights standards should not be lost on anyone.

                          Arab Charter on Human Rights

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_C...n_Human_Rights

                          Any comparison to the legal status of North American natives is also irrelevant as they hold legal tittle to the land they possess and those rights are protected by the governments of the United States and Canada.

                          If we live in a world in which law matters clearly the civilized world has an interest in protection the right of Israel to exist. That does not mean that we condone the government of Israel and should be free to criticize it without being labeled as anti Israeli. In a civilized world we should also not have to argue against tribal religious beliefs. Legal standards should and for the most part are free of religious dogma in every other liberal democracy.

                          The debate over atheism is irrelevant to the discussion unless you favor a theocracy which means if you are a U.S. citizen that your argument is close to sedious.
                          We hunt the hunters

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                          • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                            We could go about deconstructing any of the religions found in the world but it is Judaism that is in question here. It's not a question of singling out Judaism it's a question of justifying ethnicity as a workable foundation for a modern state.
                            Actually the thread began because someone posted an article that made totally misleading and false claims about a UN report. After that was addressed the thread has gone off in several different directions. So claiming that Judaism was the focus is incorrect. Your desire to discuss on it is no more relevant that other people wishing to discuss something else.
                            "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                            G.B Shaw

                            "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                            Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                              I know Jewish people from the United States that see Israel as a refuge if persecution should again plague people of Jewish descent. This issue of past persecution has a distorting effect on the issue of right of return and is somewhat unique.
                              I lol'd. You should probably check your terminology fella before you confidently speak about stuff you know....nothing about.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                                The fact that there are worse examples of legal systems based on mythology is not relevant to the discussion.
                                Huh, why not? Just becaus eyou say so? As long as I can point to the legal system of Saudi Arabia and also to the fact that plenty of those who rant against Israel don't seem to have a problem with Saudi Arabia, I can highlight that double standards are being used.

                                Israel should abandon all religious pretensions based solely on the almost universal concept of freedom from religious discrimination.
                                There are two different things here: the importance of religion in a state, which you call "religious pretensions", and religious discrimination. I don't know if you have not read Golani's posts in this thread, but what he has successfully demonstrated is that the vague and in some cases outlandish accusations of religious discrimination by the Israeli state are unfounded.

                                Surely religion is important in the Israeli legal and governmental system, but that is not the same as saying that the system discriminates on a religious basis.
                                In the USA, the weekly day of rest remains Sunday. That's the Christians' weekly holy day. Would you say therefore that the US legal system is affected by religious discrimination?

                                If we live in a world in which law matters clearly the civilized world has an interest in protection the right of Israel to exist. That does not mean that we condone the government of Israel and should be free to criticize it without being labeled as anti Israeli.
                                Well, if you always criticize the government of Israel, somebody might well conclude that you are anti-Israeli. But I'll agree that even the political enemies of Israel and/or of that country's government shouldn't be labeled as anti-Semites, which is a different thing.

                                In a civilized world we should also not have to argue against tribal religious beliefs.
                                I don't know what you find so cogent in this mating of "religious" and "tribal". As already pointed out to you, most religions actually are universalist, and the minority of them that indeed feature a strong ethnic correlation often have pretty good historical reasons to be so.

                                The debate over atheism is irrelevant to the discussion unless you favor a theocracy which means if you are a U.S. citizen that your argument is close to sedious.
                                It is certainly irrelevant to the topic's thread, but then again much of what you posted also is. That said, stating that I find that many avowed and active atheists often feature the same attitudes and fervor as religious fanatics does not mean that I want a theocracy. Indeed I don't.
                                Michele

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