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General Michael Hayden and the NSA

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  • #16
    More like "buried in bulls***".
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Darth Holliday View Post
      That kinda stumps em every-time...
      No joke.

      Originally posted by Nichols
      I'm on the fence on this.

      Getting warrants to target specific intel makes sense. Collecting everything leads to a lot of clutter that needs to be developed.

      I wonder how much time and effort has been focused on ACG members.
      The bulk collections are filtered through several programs before the first human eye hits any of it. The key to it is development of data bases, rather than actual review.

      As to ACG, some has at least one for certain. Probably more.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
        No joke.



        The bulk collections are filtered through several programs before the first human eye hits any of it. The key to it is development of data bases, rather than actual review.

        As to ACG, some has at least one for certain. Probably more.
        Don't worry, AJ - I'm sure you're well up near the top of their list.
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          The bulk collections are filtered through several programs before the first human eye hits any of it. The key to it is development of data bases, rather than actual review.
          We assume they are filtered through several programs, that being said; what/who determines the filter?

          This forum would be a magnet for any program that is looking for key words or phrases. All of the leads are going to have to be looked at by a human to determine if it is actionable intel.

          When you have the ability to collect all data and not targeted data, numerous rabbit holes are going to be searched for no reason other than they have the ability to collect the data.
          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Nichols View Post
            We assume they are filtered through several programs, that being said; what/who determines the filter?

            This forum would be a magnet for any program that is looking for key words or phrases. All of the leads are going to have to be looked at by a human to determine if it is actionable intel.

            When you have the ability to collect all data and not targeted data, numerous rabbit holes are going to be searched for no reason other than they have the ability to collect the data.
            A minimum wage civil servant does, after the list has been "passed through" - think consumed, digested and crapped out - multiple committees and staff conferences. You can be absolutely certain that the official government list of "hot words" is larger than the average American's total vocabulary. After all, they don't want to miss anything by excluding too much.

            Hut hey...don't worry...just use the words "terrorism" and Muslim" or "Islamic"a lot, instead. Obama has declared those terms non grata so the computers won't even see them.
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Nichols View Post
              We assume they are filtered through several programs, that being said; what/who determines the filter?

              This forum would be a magnet for any program that is looking for key words or phrases. All of the leads are going to have to be looked at by a human to determine if it is actionable intel.

              When you have the ability to collect all data and not targeted data, numerous rabbit holes are going to be searched for no reason other than they have the ability to collect the data.
              I'm sure my info is out of date, but they used to use Carnivore and Magic Lantern, two advanced programs that shifted through both written and audio traffic.

              Its far beyond key phrases. Those old systems indexed content by numerous factors, not the least being link analysis.

              For example, the DHS gets word that Samuel Adams, AKA Nichols, is a person of interest. They plug his name & Net moniker into their data base, and they discover, amongst other things, that he is a frequent poster on ACG, Stormfront, four prepping sites, and the Topeka Needlers forum, the latter a site devoted to knitting.

              The program notes that on the first six sites Nichols has a word reference index (WRI) of 8.2, which is high. On the knitting site, WRI 0.

              Then they run all seven sites to see who else on their member rolls has a high WRI. What is interesting is that while the first six all have a high WRI roster (not unusual given the topics), but also that there are twelve alumni of the first six, all high WRI, on the knitting forum, where all have a WRI of 0.

              That's ten minutes of Human interaction with a computer.

              Now maybe a bunch of guys who like to rant and discuss hardware on fringe websites also knit. Or maybe Nichols is recruiting fringe members and is using an unrelated public forum as a medium to coordinate communications.

              Just one simplistic example. Link analysis is key in cracking organization. Groups need fast, simple, and reliable internal communications.
              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                I'm sure my info is out of date, but they used to use Carnivore and Magic Lantern, two advanced programs that shifted through both written and audio traffic.

                Its far beyond key phrases. Those old systems indexed content by numerous factors, not the least being link analysis.

                For example, the DHS gets word that Samuel Adams, AKA Nichols, is a person of interest. They plug his name & Net moniker into their data base, and they discover, amongst other things, that he is a frequent poster on ACG, Stormfront, four prepping sites, and the Topeka Needlers forum, the latter a site devoted to knitting.

                The program notes that on the first six sites Nichols has a word reference index (WRI) of 8.2, which is high. On the knitting site, WRI 0.

                Then they run all seven sites to see who else on their member rolls has a high WRI. What is interesting is that while the first six all have a high WRI roster (not unusual given the topics), but also that there are twelve alumni of the first six, all high WRI, on the knitting forum, where all have a WRI of 0.

                That's ten minutes of Human interaction with a computer.

                Now maybe a bunch of guys who like to rant and discuss hardware on fringe websites also knit. Or maybe Nichols is recruiting fringe members and is using an unrelated public forum as a medium to coordinate communications.

                Just one simplistic example. Link analysis is key in cracking organization. Groups need fast, simple, and reliable internal communications.
                Carnivore, IIRC, was overtaken by DST2000, which was overtaken by something else.

                Meanwhile, NSA now has confirmation that knitting sites are actually covers for terrorism!
                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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