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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    What basis do you have for saying that?
    Have any of them won gunfights with amred men or women, or even engaged in them?

    We have talked here of Mall shooters that have rrun from armed men and shot themselves merely at the sight of a weapon not in their hands.
    They are very much the same creatures.

    Or we can follow the Israeli model if terrorists are your worry, where teachers have been armed for decades and managed to avoid blowing themselves apart, somehow.
    They don't care about Winning. The goal is to kill and then either kill themselves or be killed. You can't deter that.

    Reading comprehension noted.... I clearly stated that I have no problem with this program of arming the staff and teachers.
    “The time has come,” the Walrus said,
    “To talk of many things:
    Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
    Of cabbages—and kings—
    And why the sea is boiling hot—
    And whether pigs have wings.”
    ― Lewis Carroll

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    • #17
      Okay, then why the disqualification?

      Originally posted by Combat Engineer View Post
      I have no problem with this program. However no it's not a deterrent at all. You can't deter a person that plans to kill children and then kill themselves.
      Why are you in favor of something that you think is worthless?

      I mean, wtf?
      "Why is the Rum gone?"

      -Captain Jack

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      • #18
        Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
        Okay, then why the disqualification?



        Why are you in favor of something that you think is worthless?

        I mean, wtf?
        Because it is not a deterrent, which it isn't, doesn't make it worthless.

        You're trying to apply absolutes to a situation without them.

        Simple fact: if a subject bent upon the active shooter role sets out, it is extremely unlikely he will be stopped short of a bloodbath.

        There are only two possible actions: create systems which will give the staff and students a chance to extract a majority of personnel from the target site, or to introduce enough random security factors that a potential shooter considering their school will choose a different target.

        Arming the teachers is a random security factor. The shooter has no fear, but he does have an objective: achieve X body count before he dies. He's not interested in gun battles or glory, he just wants X people dead. If X is just a number, he may decide to transition from a school to a mall or eatery to ensure that X is accomplished.

        If, however, X involved not just a specific number, but rather a specific target list, than arming the teachers will simply be a factor the shooter must factor into his planning.

        In this situation there are no solutions, only potential modifiers.
        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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        • #19
          Alright, I guess I just can't wrap my head around whatever it is that motivates those shooters, but -

          Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
          There are only two possible actions: create systems which will give the staff and students a chance to extract a majority of personnel from the target site, or to introduce enough random security factors that a potential shooter considering their school will choose a different target.
          Okay, YES!
          What else can be done besides the safe with the gun in it?
          I'd like to hear more pro-active things, and less of the Maginot Line approach.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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          • #20
            Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
            Alright, I guess I just can't wrap my head around whatever it is that motivates those shooters,
            TO be fair, I don't think any sane person really gets it. The best you can do is recognize the behavior pattern.

            Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
            Okay, YES!
            What else can be done besides the safe with the gun in it?
            I'd like to hear more pro-active things, and less of the Maginot Line approach.
            There's nothing pro-active available. There's no way to detect a shooter personality before the event. The few instances they have been caught in preparation mode have been because of posting on social media, but there are experts who claim that those are not truly active shooter personalities. The Colorado movie theater guy is a question mark for that reason.

            So all you can do is to make access into the building such that gaining access will create noise, add random factors which may cause him to change targets, and hope.

            And of course these methods are much reduced if the active shooter is a student or alumni of the school. One pre-teen shooter used his knowledge of evac drills to draw the study body into a killing zone. I want to say that one was in Wisconsin.

            These guys a mentally ill, but they don't really show up on anyone's radar. The latest active shooter that comes to mind was the guy in North Dakota-he was active duty Air Force.

            The simple fact is that they will rack up a body count no matter what. All you can do is make what preparations you can, and hope for the best.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
              Its a DETERRENT, and it works.
              And it does not have to be as sophisticated as a nuclear launch system.

              Yes, keeping them in a safe is cumbersome, but its better than nothing.
              Shooters always avoid points of resistance, they want their moment of glory and are incredibly cowardly about how they go about getting it.

              I call this a step in the right direction, it might even be the only one that is needed here.
              Our system just had a professional development on school shooters and deterrence was very important. I laughed at the idea of arming the kids with soup cans when I heard about that suggestion a few months ago by an educator. After this workshop I was all for it. I think having a box of steel ball bearings might be a good idea. The whole "lockdown" drill is changing. Run, Hide and Fight are the words being used now and really in no particular order, it just depends on where you are when it goes down. There seems to be a big interest on the "fight" idea. I don't think it will be long till you see Alabama arm her teachers.
              “I do not wish to have the slave emancipated because I love him, but because I hate his master."
              --Salmon P. Chase

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                TO be fair, I don't think any sane person really gets it. The best you can do is recognize the behavior pattern.



                There's nothing pro-active available. There's no way to detect a shooter personality before the event. The few instances they have been caught in preparation mode have been because of posting on social media, but there are experts who claim that those are not truly active shooter personalities. The Colorado movie theater guy is a question mark for that reason.

                So all you can do is to make access into the building such that gaining access will create noise, add random factors which may cause him to change targets, and hope.

                And of course these methods are much reduced if the active shooter is a student or alumni of the school. One pre-teen shooter used his knowledge of evac drills to draw the study body into a killing zone. I want to say that one was in Wisconsin.

                These guys a mentally ill, but they don't really show up on anyone's radar. The latest active shooter that comes to mind was the guy in North Dakota-he was active duty Air Force.

                The simple fact is that they will rack up a body count no matter what. All you can do is make what preparations you can, and hope for the best.
                These people have one goal in mind and that is body count. They want to kill as many people as possible. Its their "statement".
                “I do not wish to have the slave emancipated because I love him, but because I hate his master."
                --Salmon P. Chase

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                • #23
                  Or kill a number of specific people.
                  you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                  CPO Mzinyati

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