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Would the US have been better off if Kerry was elected President in 2004?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
    John Kerry won the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts in Vietnam. He repeatedly shed his blood in combat in service of the United States. He is no coward.
    I disagree, he awarded himself the Silver Star and the Purple Heart for nothing more than scratches, the Bronze Star was just about a given for officers in his position, had he stayed in Vietnam longer than the 4 month he spent there he would have probably been awarded the Navy Cross!
    Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
      John Kerry won the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts in Vietnam. He repeatedly shed his blood in combat in service of the United States. He is no coward.
      Actually, from what I can tell he didn't deserve a one of those medals. He has no scars or anything from any of those purple hearts. Spent zero time in a hospital or the like either.
      One I could see that. Three? No way. You get something to remember the award by.

      He's no hero and his conduct during the "Winter Soldier" hearings was dishonest, distasteful, and packed with lies.

      Oh, he also married his money and outside his Naval service has never had a "real" job doing anything other than being a politician.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
        John Kerry won the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts in Vietnam. He repeatedly shed his blood in combat in service of the United States. He is no coward.
        Follow the embedded links in the statement below.

        Why would "Skid Row" Kerry slander a fellow POW James Warner while he was still a prisoner of North Vietnam. The man has no honor in my and nearly all Vietnam Veteran's book.
        “Breaking News,”

        “Something irrelevant in your life just happened and now we are going to blow it all out of proportion for days to keep you distracted from what's really going on.”

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
          John Kerry won the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts in Vietnam. He repeatedly shed his blood in combat in service of the United States. He is no coward.
          And he couldn't wait to apply to leave and go home after his third 'wound' which rumor has it was self-inflicted.

          And he condemned all of the American troops in Vietnam when he gave his speech before Congress, saying that they had all committed atrocities.

          That is moral cowardice of a very high degree.

          The guy is a scumbag and a fraud.

          Sincerely,
          M
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
            I disagree, he awarded himself the Silver Star and the Purple Heart for nothing more than scratches, the Bronze Star was just about a given for officers in his position
            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
            Actually, from what I can tell he didn't deserve a one of those medals. He has no scars or anything from any of those purple hearts. Spent zero time in a hospital or the like either.
            One I could see that. Three? No way. You get something to remember the award by.
            Where did the both of you get this information?

            This sounds all too much like the shameful smear campaign little Bush and friends tried to pull during the 2004 election. It was decisively refuted, and amounts to nothing more than libel. Even Kerry's own crewmates have testified on his behalf.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ke...ce_controversy

            http://content.time.com/time/magazin...686045,00.html

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._of_John_Kerry

            http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...y-awards_x.htm

            "Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed," Route wrote in the memo sent Friday to Navy Secretary Gordon England.

            "In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards."
            Kerry's Silver Star citation from Adm. Zumwalt:

            COMMANDER
            UNITED STATES NAVAL FORCES
            VIETNAM

            The President of the Unites States takes pleasure in presenting the Silver Star Medal to

            JOHN FORBES KERRY
            LIEUTENANT JUNIOR GRADE
            UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE

            for service as set forth in the following:

            CITATION

            "For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving as Officer in Charge of United States Navy Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of an operation in the Republic of Vietnam. On 28 February 1969, Patrol Craft Fast 23, 43 and 94, in conjunction with Underwater Demolition Team 13 and Vietnamese Regional and Popular Forces personnel, conducted an operation on the Ca Mau Peninsula as part of Operation SEA LORDS. While transiting the Bay Hap River en route to an insertion point along the Dong Cung River, these craft with thirty Regional/Popular Force personnel embarked in each unit came under heavy enemy small arms fire from the river banks. The Officer in Tactical Command, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY directed his units to turn to the beach and charge the Viet Cong positions. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY expertly directed the fire of his craft at the fleeing enemy while simultaneously coordinating the insertion of the embarked troops. While the Regional and Popular Forces conducted an area sweep, Patrol Craft Fast 43 remained on station to provide fire support and Patrol Craft Fast 23 and 94 moved upstream to investigate an area from which gunshots were coming. Arriving at the area, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's craft received a B-40 rocket close aboard. Once again Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY ordered his units to charge the enemy positions and summoned Patrol Craft Fast 43 to the area to provide additional firepower. Patrol Craft Fast 94 then beached in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY then led an assault party and conducted a sweep of the area while the Patrol Craft Fast continued to provide fire support. After the enemy had been completely routed, all personnel returned to the Patrol Craft Fast to withdraw from the area. While backing off the beach, these units again came under a hail of fire, this time from the opposite river bank. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately coordinated the firepower of his units and suppressed the enemy fire. Later, after disembarking personnel and while exiting from the Bay Hap River, the Patrol Craft Fast were again taken under fire. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY immediately maneuvered his craft through several strafing runs which completely silenced the enemy. As a result of this operation, ten Viet Cong were killed and one wounded with no friendly casualties. In addition, numerous sampans, structures and bunkers were destroyed as well as confiscation of substantial quantities of combat essential supplies. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's devotion to duty, courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism directly contributed to the success of this operation and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

            For the President
            (sig. E R Zumwalt)
            E. R. ZUMWALT, Jr.
            Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy
            Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam

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            • #21
              One might note, Bush Jr. did better at Yale than Kerry (both did release their college transcripts), and Bush did qualify to fly an F-102, one of the most difficult single seat fighters to operate at the time.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                Actually, from what I can tell he didn't deserve a one of those medals. He has no scars or anything from any of those purple hearts. Spent zero time in a hospital or the like either.
                One I could see that. Three? No way. You get something to remember the award by.

                He's no hero and his conduct during the "Winter Soldier" hearings was dishonest, distasteful, and packed with lies.

                Oh, he also married his money and outside his Naval service has never had a "real" job doing anything other than being a politician.
                As a politician he also has done nothing, fact!
                My worst jump story:
                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                No lie.

                ~
                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yea Bob...

                  I served in the Navy for 27 years, I saw first hand how someone who was a social climber, like Kerry, could abuse the system to get awards or better fit reps / evals.
                  Like Kerry's first PH award. Most military personnel would never have bothered to put in for one for such a minor injury. Some Bactraban and a bandaid? That is not something deserving of a PH.
                  Yet, Kerry made damn sure he got one for it. The silver star action? Same thing. I can easily see Kerry embellishing the report to make himself eligible for the award. The people above him weren't there and rely totally on those initiating the award request for honesty. So, putting up the citation means nothing to me.

                  I further think, again based on my experience that Kerry deliberately set out to get heroic awards at minimal risk to further his planned future political career.
                  He was a junior officer on the USS Dewey prior to going to Swift Boats, a voluntary assignment. As a Div O on a destroyer he had zero chance of getting any sort of heroic medals or action.
                  He chose something that would get him what he wanted and then he got the hell out of danger as quick as he could the second he got what he wanted. There was no reason for him to shift assignments if his intention was either a future career in the US Navy as an officer, or as a one term officer with no plans on a career.
                  The only reason in either case to volunteer for Swift Boats would be to get those awards.
                  A career Navy officer is better off being a division officer and qualifying OOW / OOD and getting his warfare pin. That follows to department head, then XO and then CO of a ship.
                  Swift Boats leaves you a JO with few career opportunities to advance.
                  If you planned on leaving the service when your commission was no longer mandatory service, then being on a DD would be an easy ride to the day you resign.
                  Given everything else John Kerry has done in his life I can see no reason he'd do differently here. John Kerry cares about one thing: John Kerry. He could have cared less about his assignment beyond doing exactly what it took to get what he wanted then get out.

                  As a Navy Chief I have sufficient experience with officers and senior enlisted to know the type and don't need more than the general information that has been made available about Kerry to know that he was and is a social climber who'd lie, cheat, or back stab to get where he wants to be.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                    Where did the both of you get this information?

                    This sounds all too much like the shameful smear campaign little Bush and friends tried to pull during the 2004 election. It was decisively refuted, and amounts to nothing more than libel. Even Kerry's own crewmates have testified on his behalf.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ke...ce_controversy

                    http://content.time.com/time/magazin...686045,00.html

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._of_John_Kerry

                    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...y-awards_x.htm



                    Kerry's Silver Star citation from Adm. Zumwalt:
                    I don't need to look up information, I know the song before you play it, I have two tours in Vietnam (one year each) the last one in the area where Kerry served I have the Bronze Star with two oak leaf clusters, two which I probably did not deserve, I have the Purple Heart which was not so easy to get in the Army (it put me out of commission for over four months, med evacuated to Japan) Kerry didn't even miss any duty, that is what political influence would do for you, I know what I am talking about, one of our officers was the nephew of a prominent US politician and even though he was legitimately wounded he went back to the world as Audie Murphy.
                    Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Come on guys! We missed our chance to have the first First Lady born in Africa here! Michelle can't top that!

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Well it seems some people still believe in the whole "swiftboating" fiasco. It retrospect it just seems like it was a trial run for the birthers.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Back on topic, one thing to consider is the role the economic meltdown in the balance of political power in Congress.

                          If McCain had defeated Obama then all the blame for the economy would have squarely been planted on the GOP - they'd been in office then for going on three terms, and it would have been a big blow to an already reeling GOP = the huge backlash against the GOP that swept Obama into office was a pretty damning display of how unpopular the post-Bush GOP was.

                          However, if Kerry had defeated Bush, it's likely he would have won reelection - right before the financial crisis. Thus the blame would have been laid in the laps of the Democrats, and we might have seen the 2012 election as a landslide for the GOP instead.

                          Still, it's a lot of 'what ifs' and conjecture, and really quite hard to judge. I don't imagine Kerry could have done much differently than Bush did post-Iraq - as Obama demonstrated, getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan is much harder said than done.

                          If I were a betting man I'd argue we'd be roughly in the same position we are now.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                            Well it seems some people still believe in the whole "swiftboating" fiasco. It retrospect it just seems like it was a trial run for the birthers.
                            Looks that way. One would think that 11 years later, after being so thoroughly debunked, that it would now be dead and gone.

                            Guess not.

                            Then again, I've ran into some pretty ardent Glenn Beck types in my short time on this site. I suppose the best thing to do now is not engage.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                              Back on topic, one thing to consider is the role the economic meltdown in the balance of political power in Congress.

                              If McCain had defeated Obama then all the blame for the economy would have squarely been planted on the GOP - they'd been in office then for going on three terms, and it would have been a big blow to an already reeling GOP = the huge backlash against the GOP that swept Obama into office was a pretty damning display of how unpopular the post-Bush GOP was.

                              However, if Kerry had defeated Bush, it's likely he would have won reelection - right before the financial crisis. Thus the blame would have been laid in the laps of the Democrats, and we might have seen the 2012 election as a landslide for the GOP instead.

                              Still, it's a lot of 'what ifs' and conjecture, and really quite hard to judge. I don't imagine Kerry could have done much differently than Bush did post-Iraq - as Obama demonstrated, getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan is much harder said than done.

                              If I were a betting man I'd argue we'd be roughly in the same position we are now.
                              Pretty much this. The economic collapse in 2008 can't be solely attributed to the actions of a single administration, it was a cumulative effect. On foreign policy, specifically in the management of the War on Terror the difference between Obama and Bush is not as pronounced as might be expected (setting aside the former's astonishing ignorance and capitulation to Iran, but that's another story).

                              I have been told that people in other countries look at the Democrats and Republicans and wonder what all the conflict's about- they see them both as slightly different variations of the same thing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
                                Pretty much this. The economic collapse in 2008 can't be solely attributed to the actions of a single administration, it was a cumulative effect. On foreign policy, specifically in the management of the War on Terror the difference between Obama and Bush is not as pronounced as might be expected (setting aside the former's astonishing ignorance and capitulation to Iran, but that's another story).

                                I have been told that people in other countries look at the Democrats and Republicans and wonder what all the conflict's about- they see them both as slightly different variations of the same thing.
                                They really are pretty close - which is why it is so damn hilarious when people try to accuse Obama, Clinton, or the Democrats in general of being Marxist-Leninist Socialists and the like. It's like those looneys who thought Bush was a fascist because he wanted to invade Afghanistan post-9/11 - political hyperbole is strong in this country.

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