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  • Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    Saying something is incorrect solely because you want it to be incorrect is par for the course when it comes to the internet, but it is hardly persuasive. That you are emotional on the subject is clear, but your logical reasoning doesn't support what you seem to be claiming - you seem to oppose my claim that Vietnam was not lost due to the news media, but you rarely actually mention journalists in your response except to say that you don't care if they are killed... which in a way only reinforces my assertion that the news media is used as a scapegoat by the Dolchstoß crowd.

    If you believe the news media is responsible for losing the war in Vietnam, then that's fine for you to believe in. But don't denigrate me by suggesting I am spitting on the sacrifices of my relations just for claiming that journalists are not the reason for losing the war.

    My point has been simple, yet you never seem to address it. So I'll repeat it, so you can address it directly: Those that claim the news media are responsible for losing the Vietnam War are akin to those Germans who believed in the Dolchstoß mythos after the loss in WW1.
    No, they are not and you haven't either demonstrated it or proved it.

    And, conversely, insisting that it is true, when you haven't demonstrated or proven that it was doesn't make it true.

    ‘Americans are naïve…and do not know what is happening to them…newspapers, radios, magazines, and television are all instruments of war.’-a captured North Vietnamese in 1966.

    22 February
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    I don't. It was that 'gentleman' that erroneously and mistakenly declared the US lost when TET hit and he helped both the antiwar movement in the US and the North Vietnamese, wittingly or not.

    TET was an overwhelming military victory for the US and our allies in which the Viet Cong were nearly annihilated, including their political leadership (see The Summons of the Trumpet by Dave Palmer), and Cronkite portrayed it to the US public as a loss. He was a scumbag, next to Jane Fonda.

    I have no time for either defeatists or traitors, Cronkite being the former and Fonda the latter.


    22 February
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    The argument that Vietnam was lost by the media is an old and recurring one, the American equivalent of the
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post

    Dolchstoßlegende.

    And this administration is one of the worst when it comes to transparency and media friendliness. While Bush had Cheney's expertise in spinning the war (a skill he learned during Desert Storm where the narrative was also tightly controlled), Obama and Holder have shown themselves to almost anti-news media.
    23 February
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    You are incorrect on Cronkite. He was a newsman, not a soldier, strategist, or policy maker. And his judgment was wrong. The US scored a huge victory with TET, destroying the Viet Cong and being able to go on the offensive to finish it.

    That we didn't was partly because of Cronkite and his erroneous reporting of TET. I agree with the White House was greatly at fault, but so was the anti-war movement, some of which was actively collaborating with the North Vietnamese. Much fault does lie with the journalists and the anti-war movement. When you win all the big battles and most of the small ones, you don't throw it away because of politics.


    28 February
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    Like I said, it's the American version of the Dolchstoßlegende.

    Could you please indicate where I said that ‘the news media are responsible for losing the Vietnam War’? The short answer is that I didn’t. Above is the sequence of postings in the thread and I did say that the news media, specifically Cronkite’s reporting on TET, was a contributing factor to the US failure in Vietnam, I never said that the news media was responsible for the failure in Vietnam.

    You might want to take a look at, as I recommended earlier, as the Indochina Archive of the Vietnam War that was assembled by the University of California. The amount of primary source information is immense and you could pay particular attention to how the press is portrayed by both sides as well as the American anti-war movement-the former feeding the latter and that was a definite detriment to the US war effort.

    Who, by the way is the ‘Dolchstoss crowd’?

    And, yes, comparing the US effort in Vietnam and its aftermath with the defeated Germans in War I, which included the Nazis, with a ‘stab in the back’ theory is not only an invalid historical analogy but an insult to everyone who served in Vietnam. In short, it’s not only incorrect, but nothing but propaganda from the US left.

    The following might be helpful in your understanding of Cronkite and his reporting on TET:

    http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/cronkites-vietnam-blunder-7185?page=2

    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/cronkite_1968.html

    Sincerely,
    M

    Comment


    • Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

      As a heads up, your response has a lot of formatting... things in it, so my responses might end up placing a lot of extra code in your quote boxes. I think it was from the browser you were using, because it tried to apply text color to empty spaces between sentences, etc. Apologies in advance.

      Originally posted by Massena View Post
      No, they are not and you haven't either demonstrated it or proved it.
      I haven't proven the analogy by connecting the dots between them? You're right - I haven't proven my analogy. Mostly because I cannot prove it at all.

      I can show you how I created my analogy, what made me to link those two subjects together, and why they are considered analogous of one another. If you are to disagree with that, that is your due. Some people disagree with me that dogs are fantastic, or that cheesecake is terrible.

      [COLOR=#000000]‘Americans are naïve…and do not know what is happening to them…newspapers, radios, magazines, and television are all instruments of war.’-a captured North Vietnamese in 1966.
      Indeed - the media coverage of the war, especially in the early years, was woefully inadequate and overwhelmingly following the government/military line. The people at home certainly didn't know what was going on.

      Could you please indicate where I said that ‘the news media are responsible for losing the Vietnam War’? The short answer is that I didn’t. Above is the sequence of postings in the thread and I did say that the news media, specifically Cronkite’s reporting on TET, was a contributing factor to the US failure in Vietnam, I never said that the news media was responsible for the failure in Vietnam.
      I think you're finally starting to understand. You never did say that - which is why your responses to my statement that the media was not responsible for the loss in Vietnam seemed so odd and misplaced.

      I said that the news media was not responsible for losing the war. If you agree with that, then there's nothing to argue about. If you disagree with that, then you can lay out your argument. But don't misunderstand what I've said.

      You might want to take a look at, as I recommended earlier, as the Indochina Archive of the Vietnam War that was assembled by the University of California. The amount of primary source information is immense and you could pay particular attention to how the press is portrayed by both sides as well as the American anti-war movement-the former feeding the latter and that was a definite detriment to the US war effort.
      Does it disprove my assertion that the news media was not responsible for loosing the war?


      Who, by the way is the ‘Dolchstoss crowd’?
      The people who believe the stab in the back myth about Vietnam.

      And, yes, comparing the US effort in Vietnam and its aftermath with the defeated Germans in War I, which included the Nazis, with a ‘stab in the back’ theory is not only an invalid historical analogy but an insult to everyone who served in Vietnam. In short, it’s not only incorrect, but nothing but propaganda from the US left.
      Again, you are misunderstanding what I've said. It's almost religious at this point.

      My commentary was solely about the news media and creating an analogy between the false idea that the news media was responsible for the loss in Vietnam, and the false idea that it was the civilians/Jews/liberals/etc. who were responsible for loosing WW1.

      I know you're passionate about this subject, but why do you keep trying to make this about the soldiers? My argument has been - again - that the news media was not responsible for the loss in Vietnam, and that people who believe it was the news media's fault are akin to those Germans who believed it was the civilians/Jews/liberals/etc. who were responsible.

      I mean, I don't know how many more times I can repeat that before you understand that I have not compared the US effort in Vietnam to the Nazis. In my argument I've said nothing about the soldiers. Zip. Nadda.

      So why do you keep trying to represent what I say as if I'm trying to put down the soldiers? My entire argument is to refute those misguided folk who believe it was the news media's fault - the Dolchstoß legend isn't about the soldiers, it's about those who believe it was the news media's fault.

      I'll repeat myself again, to try and make sure there isn't any more confusion: believing that the media lost Vietnam is the American version of the Dolchstoß legend, with journalists replacing Jews and civilians.

      The following might be helpful in your understanding of Cronkite and his reporting on TET:

      http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/cronkites-vietnam-blunder-7185?page=2

      https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/cronkite_1968.html

      Sincerely,
      M
      Are you arguing that Cronkite lost the war for the United States? Is the argument that without media coverage of the war the US would have won?

      Because unless that is what you're saying, it's not dealing with my stated point. I have not once said that there was not some negative effect, that no journalists didn't negatively effect the war, etc.

      My point, which I've repeated above ad nauseum, deals solely with the American version of the Dolchstoß legend which blames the news media for the loss in Vietnam.

      I have to ask why you are so offended by the idea that I'm comparing the fools who wrongly blame the news media for the loss of one war with the fools who wrongly blamed the Jews and civilians for the loss of a different war?

      More importantly, how is that an insult to those who served in Vietnam?

      Comment

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