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  • Originally posted by Gaius_Marius View Post
    European states that are older than the USA?

    Denmark 10th century
    Portugal 1139
    England 1066 or earlier
    Spain 1492 (conquest of Granada)
    France 800

    Those are countries that united more or less at the given dates. Many more can be included and everyone else have a rich history going back to Roman times with some kind of state.

    Wisdom means knowledge. If you do not even know the writers that were the philosophical foundation of your country you are badly educated. If you notice the post I wrote it was only English writers because they were your philosophical foundation. I could have named many others who were not but were also part of the liberal tradition your country was founded on. I just didnt expect you to know people like Mirandola, Petrarch, Piccolomini or Vico. And I am still forgetting many more.


    First, Wisdom does not equal knowledge. We must be able to use that knowledge intelligently.

    Second, As noted by others, you ignored my question and answered one I didn't ask.
    I asked about "governments". Not nations.
    The fact that you didn't want to acknowledge my point didn't change my question.
    Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

    Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gaius_Marius View Post
      The civil war did bring about a new government, new laws and a new political system. So the same people that fought the civil war were also the same people who continued your new government? Yes?

      My argument was that a change to the constitution did not bring a new state. Try to read. Denmark was an absolute monarchy for almost a 1000 years before they changed the constitution to a constitutional monarchy.

      The argument you are opposing is the same argument I was making. The European states I mentioned changed governments and political systems. But they remained the same states they were a thousand years earlier.

      So yes... If we want to follow your logic any state that changes form of government is a new state. I have argued that a state like Portugal who has has had the same borders for a 1000 years is the same state regardless of government form. Today it is Republican. 1000 years ago it was monarchical.


      The American Civil war did not bring about a change in government to the US.
      The system of government was unchanged, because the Government won that war.
      An election was held in 1864 and the same people remained in office until the end of their terms, with the exception of Lincoln due to his assassination, even though the war ended during those terms, in 1865.
      Nevertheless, his vice president assumed leadership unuder the same system that had existed pre-war.

      If you are going to lecture us about our system of government, I would urge you to learn something about it first.

      "Wisdom" teaches us things like that.
      Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

      Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gaius_Marius View Post
        Well... If you really want to limit it to governments I guess we remain with Denmark, England, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxenbourg, San Marino, Netherlands, Norway, Andorra, and Belgium. Plus others.

        Um, Belgium didn't even exist until 1830.
        The US Constitution was ratified in 1788.
        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gaius_Marius View Post
          Well... If you really want to limit it to governments I guess we remain with Denmark, England, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxenbourg, San Marino, Netherlands, Norway, Andorra, and Belgium. Plus others.
          .

          Belgium belonged to Austria, and Norway was part of Denmark in 1789. Switzerland's present government was formed with the help of Napoleon in ca 1800. San Marino was ruled by a fascist government from 1923-1943. The Netherlands went from republic to kingdom under Napoleon, and then was annexed by Napoleon in 1810. It was again a kingdom, incorporating Belgium, in 1815 ruled by the House of Orange.

          Would you like to try again? It appears that you have trouble with European history...

          Sincerely,
          M
          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment

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