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  • So mr bock you are going to sit there and do nothing, while the panet slowly become a hostile environment. when Switching from fossil fuels to low-carbon sources of energy will cost $44 trillion between now and 2050, https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...limate-change/
    what will climate change cost the american people ?
    A report authored by hundreds of U.S. climate scientists from 13 federal agencies presents a stark picture of the country’s fate due to climate change. The Fourth National Climate Assessment, released November 23, predicts the U.S. economy will shrink by as much as 10 percent by the end of the century if global warming continues apace. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...-united-states
    so do nothing and watch the economy shrink by 10% of 19.61 trillion PPP dollars (2017)
    https://www.google.com/search?q=what...727CA727&oq=th
    That comes out to 31 years X 1.9 trillion lost revenu per year equals 58.9 trillion dollars lost .

    conclusion it is cheaper to fix this 44 trillion than to do nothing 58.9 trillion not to mention the loss of life to plants,animals and humans .

    Comment


    • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

      However, CO (Carbon Monoxide) isn't even shown in the graphic illustration of my post you quote.

      Once again we see a hyperbolic, emotional driven, and il-logical response to these issues.

      How about some real information, details/data;
      ...
      Carbon monoxide is present in Earth's atmosphere at very low concentrations. A typical concentration of CO in Earth's troposphere is around 100 ppb (parts per billion; meaning one hundred out of every billion air molecules is carbon monoxide), although especially clean air can have concentrations as low as 50 ppb. Carbon monoxide has a typical "lifespan" of several months in Earth's atmosphere. The gas eventually reacts with oxygen (O2) to form carbon dioxide (CO2).

      Natural sources of carbon monoxide in Earth's atmosphere include volcanoes and bushfires. Volcanic gases contain between 0.01 and 2% carbon monoxide. Humans contribute vast quantities of CO to our atmosphere, mostly as a result of automobile emissions. Carbon monoxide is the most abundant, by mass, pollutant gas. Atmospheric carbon monoxide levels in typical urban areas are around 10 ppm (parts per million), about 100 times higher than in Earth's atmosphere overall. In areas with heavy traffic, CO levels can rise to as high as 50 ppm. Certain industrial processes, along with fossil fuel and biomass burning, are major human-produced sources of CO. In the United States, about 2/3rds of carbon monoxide emissions come from automobiles. Scientists estimate than the total annual production of carbon monoxide, from human and natural sources, is between two and five gigatons.
      ...
      Carbon monoxide is often a product of incomplete combustion. If there is too little oxygen, or too much carbon, present when something burns, the burning produces carbon monoxide (CO) instead of (or as well as) carbon dioxide (CO2). Improperly ventilated kerosene lanterns and stoves can generate dangerously high carbon monoxide levels in enclosed spaces.

      Since CO takes longer to mix completely throughout the troposphere than a typical CO molecules survives (before being oxidized to CO2), carbon monoxide exhibits locally elevated or depleted concentrations in the vicinity of sources (places where it is created or released into the atmosphere) or sinks (places where it is destroyed or removed from the atmosphere) respectively. Worldwide measurements of CO concentrations can, therefore, help to locate sources and sinks of this gas.

      Carbon monoxide indirectly contributes to the buildup of some greenhouse gases in the troposphere. It reacts with certain chemicals that would otherwise destroy methane and ozone, thus helping to elevate the concentrations of methane and ozone.
      ...
      https://scied.ucar.edu/carbon-monoxide

      See the red highlighted above. Hopefully you can grasp the math involved enough to realize how little a "danger" general atmospheric levels of CO REALLY are.

      I wasn't making a comment about atmospheric Co or it's role as a greenhouse gas.

      150 parts C0 in a million parts of air is deadly to us.... small things can kill us quite easily.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        Is it anywhere near unprecedented compared to the last millennium or so?
        apparently, it is. temperatures have been rising ten times as fast as anything in the tracible past, which is a concern.
        Re-forestation, on a massive scale, is one solution that will work, and really does make sense even if the causes are found other than C02 levels. The beasties of the world do need a place to live....

        On the prairies where I grew up, mass clearances of hedgerows and planting to, and into , seasonal drainage areas became the norm, ad it is a hard 'farmer habit' to break.

        the world may have to look at using sulfate aerosols to dim the atmosphere, which I feel may be preferable to slowing down economies. Trees are a great , time tested idea.
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jutland View Post


          I wasn't making a comment about atmospheric Co or it's role as a greenhouse gas.

          150 parts C0 in a million parts of air is deadly to us.... small things can kill us quite easily.
          Oh I dunno, on my home planet we get by on pure ammonia. As far as I can tell, I'm perfectly normal...
          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

          Comment


          • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
            So mr bock you are going to sit there and do nothing, while the panet slowly become a hostile environment. when Switching from fossil fuels to low-carbon sources of energy will cost $44 trillion between now and 2050, https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...limate-change/
            what will climate change cost the american people ?
            A report authored by hundreds of U.S. climate scientists from 13 federal agencies presents a stark picture of the country’s fate due to climate change. The Fourth National Climate Assessment, released November 23, predicts the U.S. economy will shrink by as much as 10 percent by the end of the century if global warming continues apace. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...-united-states
            so do nothing and watch the economy shrink by 10% of 19.61 trillion PPP dollars (2017)
            https://www.google.com/search?q=what...727CA727&oq=th
            That comes out to 31 years X 1.9 trillion lost revenu per year equals 58.9 trillion dollars lost .

            conclusion it is cheaper to fix this 44 trillion than to do nothing 58.9 trillion not to mention the loss of life to plants,animals and humans .
            the Rats will, apparently, still survive Bill. Civilization will rise again , slowly, from intelligent rats.
            there's always - hope..

            Canada, interestingly enough, has GAINED from global warming . the Great Ontario clay belt is probably North America's granary -while we change our ways.
            When I was in University , in the 1980's ,I had acquaintances who dropped out and bought abandoned Clay belt farm land . We thought they would either freeze to death or pull out.
            Last I heard, their children farm over 5,000 acres of oats, canola, and beef a year, and they winter in the Tropics.
            We should have been hippies, after all....

            The great clay belt is perhaps worth a topic all its own.

            this is the Kapuskasing temperature graph, which the doc once told me is 'worthless'. I assume he means it isn't in colourmap and doesn't go back an indecipherable twenty million years....

            since 1965, heat days have increased by over 40 % .
            where is the Doc when we really need him?

            More clay belt:http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/..._vbn0713a4.htm
            Last edited by marktwain; 25 Sep 19, 17:48.
            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

            Comment


            • Hudson Bay warming- great article.
              https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...-paleoclimate/

              The Hudson has been the culprit in the North Ontario Ice Box freeze up, which is the periodic bane of clay belt farming. Warming, and losing it's ice cover, means that supplementary feeding of its polar bears may be a summer necessity,
              .
              The Orca is becoming the new apex predator in the Hudson.http://www.arcticnet.ulaval.ca/pdf/p...gdon_et_al.pdf
              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

              Comment


              • Remember Greenland was green not that long ago, must have been hard on the polar bears
                We hunt the hunters

                Comment


                • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                  Remember Greenland was green not that long ago, must have been hard on the polar bears
                  It was about a thousand years ago that the Vikings were able to exist with gardening and livestock raising to sustain living on the Southern shores of Greenland. It is too cold for such conditions now, and ever since over nine hundred years ago. They stumbled into a brief "Natural" span where such was possible, extinguished by another Natural set of events.

                  Human Hubris thinks we have more impact upon Nature and "Climate"* than we actually do.

                  " * " As "backyard gardeners", the wife and I are rather busy now with 'harvest' right now ...; bringing in their bounty from our tomato, bean, fig, pear, and other crops/plants that need to be processed and preserved. Might be jarring and boiling, drying in dehydrator, freezing, or other methods, but part of why my posts here will be a bit sporadic for a while.

                  Key Point is that we get dirt under our fingernails 'walking the walk' of living and working with Nature while so many of you just "talk a talk".

                  Our modest half acre is an overgrowth of "carbon based reproductive, self-expanding 'carbon sequestration units' covering our "carbon-footprint" and also providing our organic system and method of sustaining Flora and Food into future years. WE are doing on our own small scale what so many "talkers" fail to do on theirs.

                  Sorry folks, the vast majority of you posting here and on other similar threads lack credibility in my eyes because you fail to live and do what you say, and hence remain hypocrites and phonies as far as I'm concerned.
                  Last edited by G David Bock; 25 Sep 19, 20:37.

                  Comment


                  • Getting a bit more back on topic of this thread; one major challenge is how about a dozen diverse climate zones are getting squashed in one aggregate here where what might be good for some would be not-so for others;

                    Those whom actually work with nature and plants might grasp this better than you concrete-pounders ... The 12 Climate Regions

                    The 12 Climate Regions

                    1. Tropical wet
                    2. Tropical wet and dry
                    3. Semiarid
                    4. Desert (arid)
                    5. Mediterranean
                    6. Humid subtropical
                    7. Marine West Coast
                    8. Humid continental
                    9. Subarctic
                    10. Tundra
                    11. Icecap
                    12. Highland
                    Climate Map - World Climate Map – World




                    http://www.plantsrescue.com/the-12-climate-regions/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                      Remember Greenland was green not that long ago, must have been hard on the polar bears
                      Greenlands first ( small ) logging company
                      The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        Since we happen to live on the surface of Earth, it likely is a matter of concern for us and our future generations. But who has the crystal ball to accurately say what will be in 50-100 years?
                        There's no need for a crystal ball - we know for example that if local sea-level here continues to rise as it does now in that time span, it will amount to +- 1 m.

                        That's not a unsurmountable problem, we can add sand to the beach, we can construct barriers in the sea, we can construct buildings in manners they can withstand flooding, we could conceivably build a dike or wall at the waterfront….

                        Those are the things that need to be discussed and planned for now though.

                        In fact, we have been doing all those things for centuries, much of what is dry land now here, was not 500 or 1000 years ago, and of course, much of wat is now the North Sea was once dry land.

                        The CO2 discussion, tectonics, Solar storms and what not, interesting as they may be, are really just as many red herrings.

                        Who was accurately seeing 50-75 years down the road back in 1933 or 1945 for example ?
                        We were (or at least our ancestors)

                        In 1953 for example there was a "perfect storm" situation were the North Sea tide, the Schelde estuary and the weather all conspired to make the land look like this :
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by Snowygerry; 26 Sep 19, 03:50.
                        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                        Comment


                        • That of course was deemed unacceptable, so measures were taken, both here and north of the border to remedy the situation and to prevent similar mishaps in future.

                          Preciously little effort went into debating the cause of it, or the fact if it was truly "unprecedented" or maybe the fault of the Democrats, since no one really cares.

                          That worked, and we would like to do the same for our offspring our ancestors did for us, that is, leave them land to live on
                          Last edited by Snowygerry; 26 Sep 19, 05:03.
                          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                            That of course was deemed unacceptable, so measures were taken, both here and north of the border to remedy the situation and to prevent similar mishaps in future.

                            Preciously little effort went into debating the cause of it, or the fact if it was truly "unprecedented" or maybe the fault of the Democrats, since no one really cares.

                            That worked, and we would like to do the same for our offspring our ancestors did for us, that is, leave them land to live on
                            They didn't blame- the Democrats?

                            I don't know about you Flemish folks, Snowy. In 1953, I would have been Blaming Barak Obama, for sure...

                            The poor Walcheren. War weakened dikes and war weary people. I'd forgotten the 1953 storm.

                            My late father was rather put out by watching the massive land forest clearances in Canada in the early 1970's. a 'perfect storm of large powerful equipment, high crop prices, and the 'plant road ditch to road ditch' mentality.
                            we are still fixing that damage, rather abashed that it was a man made disaster....
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                              My late father was rather put out by watching the massive land forest clearances in Canada in the early 1970's. a 'perfect storm of large powerful equipment, high crop prices, and the 'plant road ditch to road ditch' mentality.
                              we are still fixing that damage, rather abashed that it was a man made disaster....
                              I remember the big debates in BC in the 90s to move away from clear-cutting forestry policies (while the Atlantic provinces were fighting about over-fishing) that were finally seen as clearly unsustainable.

                              And that's the word that often comes back to me: Unsustainable. I don't fundamentally care about 'global warming' or 'climate change' (however those terms are defined, or by whom), but the fact of the matter is that we live in a closed system with finite resources. The pollution and garbage that we pump into our rivers, air, and oceans, stays inside that closed system. Eventually it'll catch up with us. In limited instances it has. I do think much has been done to reduce air pollution and dumping toxins into rivers in most of the develloped world. But, that has come about by adopting many 'hippy environmentalist' policies, more efficient cars, less polluting factories, etc. Nothing wrong with any of that.

                              There is a line though and there is more to it than simply two extremist choices: environmentalist hippy paradise vs complete environmental plundering for short-term eceonomic gain. You can have smart, efficient, sustainable, profitable industry. But some things are limited. Eventually, there will be no more aluminium or iron-ore to mine. Eventually there will be no more oil to pump out of the ground. I don't think that shifting and evolving to more sustainable energy systems is any more different that what the world went through when it converted from the horse and buggy to steam and then to the internal combustion engine. People complain about the cost and inefficiency of current clean energy or electric vehicles etc, but that was exactly what the internal combustion engine was like 100+ years ago. It's only been 60 or 70 years since the common working class family could afford a car. And yet the internal combustion engine has been around for over 150 years. It took time for that technology to develop and become cost-effective.

                              Comment


                              • The way I see it is we have a very long, long, way to go before we're close to using up this planet. Oil is renewable as it is made primarily by diatoms and plankton in the oceans that die, sink to the bottom, decompose into methane, and are eventually covered by enough sediment to be, by pressure and heat, turned into more oil. We can make oil from algae too synthetically for example.

                                Metals won't get used up anytime soon are almost always recyclable. Radioactives are a different story. Those decay and we don't get them back.

                                The world's pollution situation, on the whole, is much better today than a century ago before we did anything about it. It took mankind several millennia, just considering recorded history, for use to even get to an internal combustion engine although Hero did invent a simple steam engine something like 2,000 years ago...

                                My biggest concern is that idiots, the politically-, and self-motivated (eg., greedy) are the biggest movers and shakers of Gorebal Warming. It's clear in their so-called solutions that they have no interest in what works but rather what's politically correct, feels or sounds good to them, or what they can most profit from personally. That means I should definitely be opposed to their positions.

                                Comment

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