The Environmentalism and Global Warming Thread

[G David Bock]

Another image providing context;

[G David Bock]

FWIW:

Renewable Energy is a Scam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL6uB1z95gA

The Glaring Engineering Mistake That Made Wind Turbines Inefficient | Massive Engineering Mistakes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og2H7ZxkiMA

TOO MUCH WIND! 10 Wind Turbine Fails
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nemy4TD4I3A

The Tech That Could Fix One of Wind Power's Biggest Problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlxz-KzebbQ

[T. A. Gardner]

Solar burns companies and people...

This one is in German but it conveys one of the dangers of distributed solar arrays. Your house or business may well burn to the ground.

[marktwain]

ISIS is a larger threat to life than the 0.01% of dry atmosphere content which is the amount of CO2 above that needed by 99+% of life on this planet (flora~plants).

Note in this graph (which only shows 800,000 years out of @ 4,500,000,000 of Earth lifetime) that there are times when temperature increase PRECEDES CO2 increase and also times when temperatures drop lower despite CO2 increase. Indication would be there is little if any linkage with CO2 and temperature, and if anything it is temperatures which might drive the CO2 levels.

Also note the cycling of 'peaks and valleys' illustrating that climate is constantly changing.

Chart source;
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-war...erature-change

I hate to crash the party, but the NOAA graphs that you have been referencing are part of a study that refutes your position:

Looking at the relative contributions of these forcings to climate change over the past 1,000 years, scientists have concluded from model simulations that:

1. Solar and volcanic forcings have been responsible for some of the variations in Northern Hemisphere temperature over the past 1,000 years.
2. Neither solar nor volcanic forcing can explain the dramatic warming of the 20th century. Changes in these forcings during the 20th century would actually have resulted in a small cooling since 1960.
3. Only by adding the human-caused increase in greenhouse gas concentrations are the models able to explain the unprecedented warmth we are currently experiencing.

[G David Bock]

Graph in post 1215 shows that warmth is far from unprecedented over span of 4.5 billion year Earth history.

[panther3485]

Is it anywhere near unprecedented compared to the last millennium or so?

[T. A. Gardner]

For all we know, we could very well be having another medieval warming period given that the data for the last one is anything but perfect...

[panther3485]

In terms of interpretation at least, I'm not so sure the data are all that great now.

[Snowygerry]

Graph in post 1215 shows that warmth is far from unprecedented over span of 4.5 billion year Earth history.

Well I don't need to see a graph for that, over a span of 4.5 billion years, pretty much nothing is unprecedented, "earth" was a collection of gas, and it will be again one day.

But people of course want to know what to expect in 50 maybe 100 years, themselves, their children and grandchildren that's what interests and motivates them, not the future of "earth" as such

[Jutland]

Another image providing context;

For additional context Carbon Monoxide concentrations as low as 150 ppm in the atmosphere can kill you.

[G David Bock]

For additional context Carbon Monoxide concentrations as low as 150 ppm in the atmosphere can kill you.

However, CO (Carbon Monoxide) isn't even shown in the graphic illustration of my post you quote.

Once again we see a hyperbolic, emotional driven, and il-logical response to these issues.

How about some real information, details/data;
...
Carbon monoxide is present in Earth's atmosphere at very low concentrations. A typical concentration of CO in Earth's troposphere is around 100 ppb (parts per billion; meaning one hundred out of every billion air molecules is carbon monoxide), although especially clean air can have concentrations as low as 50 ppb. Carbon monoxide has a typical "lifespan" of several months in Earth's atmosphere. The gas eventually reacts with oxygen (O₂) to form carbon dioxide (CO₂).

Natural sources of carbon monoxide in Earth's atmosphere include volcanoes and bushfires. Volcanic gases contain between 0.01 and 2% carbon monoxide. Humans contribute vast quantities of CO to our atmosphere, mostly as a result of automobile emissions. Carbon monoxide is the most abundant, by mass, pollutant gas. Atmospheric carbon monoxide levels in typical urban areas are around 10 ppm (parts per million), about 100 times higher than in Earth's atmosphere overall. In areas with heavy traffic, CO levels can rise to as high as 50 ppm. Certain industrial processes, along with fossil fuel and biomass burning, are major human-produced sources of CO. In the United States, about 2/3rds of carbon monoxide emissions come from automobiles. Scientists estimate than the total annual production of carbon monoxide, from human and natural sources, is between two and five gigatons.
...
Carbon monoxide is often a product of incomplete combustion. If there is too little oxygen, or too much carbon, present when something burns, the burning produces carbon monoxide (CO) instead of (or as well as) carbon dioxide (CO₂). Improperly ventilated kerosene lanterns and stoves can generate dangerously high carbon monoxide levels in enclosed spaces.

Since CO takes longer to mix completely throughout the troposphere than a typical CO molecules survives (before being oxidized to CO₂), carbon monoxide exhibits locally elevated or depleted concentrations in the vicinity of sources (places where it is created or released into the atmosphere) or sinks (places where it is destroyed or removed from the atmosphere) respectively. Worldwide measurements of CO concentrations can, therefore, help to locate sources and sinks of this gas.

Carbon monoxide indirectly contributes to the buildup of some greenhouse gases in the troposphere. It reacts with certain chemicals that would otherwise destroy methane and ozone, thus helping to elevate the concentrations of methane and ozone.
...
https://scied.ucar.edu/carbon-monoxide

See the red highlighted above. Hopefully you can grasp the math involved enough to realize how little a "danger" general atmospheric levels of CO REALLY are.

[G David Bock]

Is it anywhere near unprecedented compared to the last millennium or so?

One of my points of contention is that scale of millennium (1000 years) or even a few (2-3000 years) are too short a timeline of cherry picked data to provide an accurate measure of whether this is really anthropogenic(and CO2 caused) or within scale of natural expectations. Note in this chart how often in Earth's history temperatures are rather high when CO2 levels are rather low. i.e. little evidence of direct linkage of CO2 levels CAUSING temperature increases CO2 is purple line, Temps are the blue line);

[G David Bock]

Well I don't need to see a graph for that, over a span of 4.5 billion years, pretty much nothing is unprecedented, "earth" was a collection of gas, and it will be again one day.

More correctly, Earth is a 99.99% collection of "rock" with a thin layer of hydrosphere (water-H20 + atmosphere) which about 4 billion years started to sustain early life(biosphere), which was solely flora until less than a billion years ago. But yes, correct to note that the surface of Earth has been in constant flux and "climate(s)" have gone through many transitions.

But people of course want to know what to expect in 50 maybe 100 years, themselves, their children and grandchildren that's what interests and motivates them, not the future of "earth" as such

Since we happen to live on the surface of Earth, it likely is a matter of concern for us and our future generations. But who has the crystal ball to accurately say what will be in 50-100 years?

Who was accurately seeing 50-75 years down the road back in 1933 or 1945 for example?

Looking closer at this chart, those "valleys" in the graph, where temps are in the minus from present seem to correspond to ice ages/glaciation periods, and their duration's are a lot longer than the brief warmings in-between. Also, those peaks of warming are rather short spans and if the previous ones are any gauge, we may be on the verge of another plunge into ice age/glaciation so I'd suggest enjoy the warmth while it lasts, it could vanish within a decade based upon past records indications.

[G David Bock]

I hate to crash the party, but the NOAA graphs that you have been referencing are part of a study that refutes your position:

Looking at the relative contributions of these forcings to climate change over the past 1,000 years, scientists have concluded from model simulations that:

1. Solar and volcanic forcings have been responsible for some of the variations in Northern Hemisphere temperature over the past 1,000 years.
2. Neither solar nor volcanic forcing can explain the dramatic warming of the 20th century. Changes in these forcings during the 20th century would actually have resulted in a small cooling since 1960.
3. Only by adding the human-caused increase in greenhouse gas concentrations are the models able to explain the unprecedented warmth we are currently experiencing.

You're not crashing as fart as I'm concerned and the study would likely be consensus OPINION, not necessarily what the data might show to minority whom don't support the consensus.

Would help if you provided a link to your source for the chart since there is no explanation for all that it shows presented, nor have you documented what might be excerpt quotes.

For example, by 'volcanic forcing' do they mean only volcanic eruptions or are they including geo-thermal radiation rising from Earth's core.

Have they factored in the Milankovitch cycles - Wikipedia ?

Again, note we are dealing with "models" and the GIGO factor could apply. So far, no one seems to have tried to replicate atmospheric conditions in laboratory vacuum chamber to simulate heat retention per CO2 concentrations and absence of CO2 presence.

From text in pager link of that chart:
....
While it might seem simple to determine cause and effect between carbon dioxide and climate from which change occurs first, or from some other means, the determination of cause and effect remains exceedingly difficult. Furthermore, other changes are involved in the glacial climate, including altered vegetation, land surface characteristics, and ice sheet extent.
...
Finally, paleoclimate data reveal that climate change is not just about temperature. As carbon dioxide has changed in the past, many other aspects of climate changed too. During glacial times, snow lines were lower, continents were drier, and the tropical monsoons were weaker. Some of these changes may be independent; others tightly coupled to the changing level of carbon dioxide. Understanding which of these changes might occur in the future, and how large those changes might be, remains a topic of vigorous research. NOAA's Paleoclimatology Program helps scientists document the changes that have occurred in the past as one approach to understanding future climate change.
...
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/global-war...erature-change

Seems on the one hand they admit it's hard to pin all specifically on CO2, then on the other hand admit "...the determination of cause and effect remains exceedingly difficult."

[G David Bock]

Earliest atmosphere


The first atmosphere consisted of gases in the solar nebula, primarily hydrogen. There were probably simple hydrides such as those now found in the gas giants (Jupiter and Saturn), notably water vapor, methane and ammonia.^[38]

Second atmosphere

Outgassing from volcanism, supplemented by gases produced during the late heavy bombardment of Earth by huge asteroids, produced the next atmosphere, consisting largely of nitrogen plus carbon dioxide and inert gases.^[38] A major part of carbon-dioxide emissions dissolved in water and reacted with metals such as calcium and magnesium during weathering of crustal rocks to form carbonates that were deposited as sediments. Water-related sediments have been found that date from as early as 3.8 billion years ago.^[39]

About 3.4 billion years ago, nitrogen formed the major part of the then stable "second atmosphere". The influence of life has to be taken into account rather soon in the history of the atmosphere, because hints of early life-forms appear as early as 3.5 billion years ago.^[40] How Earth at that time maintained a climate warm enough for liquid water and life, if the early Sun put out 30% lower solar radiance than today, is a puzzle known as the "faint young Sun paradox".

The geological record however shows a continuous relatively warm surface during the complete early temperature record of Earth – with the exception of one cold glacial phase about 2.4 billion years ago. In the late Archean Eon an oxygen-containing atmosphere began to develop, apparently produced by photosynthesizing cyanobacteria (see Great Oxygenation Event), which have been found as stromatolite fossils from 2.7 billion years ago. The early basic carbon isotopy (isotope ratio proportions) strongly suggests conditions similar to the current, and that the fundamental features of the carbon cycle became established as early as 4 billion years ago.

Ancient sediments in the Gabon dating from between about 2,150 and 2,080 million years ago provide a record of Earth's dynamic oxygenation evolution. These fluctuations in oxygenation were likely driven by the Lomagundi carbon isotope excursion.^[41]

Third atmosphere


Oxygen content of the atmosphere over the last billion years^[42][43]


The constant re-arrangement of continents by plate tectonics influences the long-term evolution of the atmosphere by transferring carbon dioxide to and from large continental carbonate stores. Free oxygen did not exist in the atmosphere until about 2.4 billion years ago during the Great Oxygenation Event and its appearance is indicated by the end of the banded iron formations.

Before this time, any oxygen produced by photosynthesis was consumed by oxidation of reduced materials, notably iron. Molecules of free oxygen did not start to accumulate in the atmosphere until the rate of production of oxygen began to exceed the availability of reducing materials that removed oxygen. This point signifies a shift from a reducing atmosphere to an oxidizing atmosphere. O₂ showed major variations until reaching a steady state of more than 15% by the end of the Precambrian.^[44] The following time span from 541 million years ago to the present day is the Phanerozoic Eon, during the earliest period of which, the Cambrian, oxygen-requiring metazoan life forms began to appear.

The amount of oxygen in the atmosphere has fluctuated over the last 600 million years, reaching a peak of about 30% around 280 million years ago, significantly higher than today's 21%. Two main processes govern changes in the atmosphere: Plants using carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and releasing oxygen, and then plants using some oxygen at night by the process of photorespiration with the remainder of the oxygen being used to breakdown adjacent organic material. Breakdown of pyrite and volcanic eruptions release sulfur into the atmosphere, which oxidizes and hence reduces the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. However, volcanic eruptions also release carbon dioxide, which plants can convert to oxygen. The exact cause of the variation of the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere is not known. Periods with much oxygen in the atmosphere are associated with rapid development of animals. Today's atmosphere contains 21% oxygen, which is great enough for this rapid development of animals.^[45]
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth