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  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    I disagree with some of this. People, even today can relocate ourselves when necessary to survive. We're actually probably better at it than ancient civilizations that existed near great disasters in doing so. First, we can often recognize the disaster coming... I mean real disasters like a volcano, flooding, massive earthquakes, etc. Ancient peoples could not.
    We can see these things in advance. If someone truly believed in Gorebal Warming, then they too could make efforts to mitigate their own exposure to damage from it, as they see the situation. Where the problem arises is when they are like
    I wish I could agree with you, but millions of starving people all over the world clearly demonstrate that while we might have the ability to relocate entire populations as you indicate, we no longer do so. Instead, we appeal to groups like the united Nations to keep us going despite the lunacy of doing so.

    Floods and disasters? People just rebuild, especially trailer parks in Tornado Alley, again expecting the government to pick up the tab. Want to be tornado-proof? Live underground. It really is that simple, and technology - Japanese, ironically - has solved the sunlight problem.

    Live in a massive earthquake zone? No problem...build those high rises and elevated expressways, and rebuild them every time they come crashing down.

    Live in a total desert? No problem...bring water from somewhere, and build those high risers and freeways right on that shifting sand. Bring food in from anywhere and everywhere. Don't worry about sustainability...just do it. Or get someone else to do it for you, like America/the UN.

    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • On the other hand, planting more trees is something we can control. We plant more trees, get less CO2. If it's too low we cut a bunch down and later go shopping at IKEA or something like that. We'd have some immediate ability to control how many trees there are. Wood is a basic resource as well. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have more available should we need it.
      This is a much better alternative right now than upending the entirety of the world's economy for something like the New Green (underhanded) Deal.

      Comment


      • For temporary archive and context, science and scientists being essential parts of the discussion;

        5 Scientists with Ideas That Nobody Believed ... Who Were Right

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_zFyXWxxMA
        ...
        SciShow
        Published on Dec 2, 2018

        People have struggled to understand some hypotheses scientists had, which are correct but were disclaimed back then. So here’s the 5 scientists and their ideas that nobody believed. Hosted by: Hank Green SciShow has a spinoff podcast! It's called SciShow Tangents. Check it out at https://www.scishowtangents.org ----------
        Support SciShow by becoming a patron on Pa****n: https://www.pa****n.com/scishow ---------- Dooblydoo thanks go to the following Pa****n supporters: rokoko, Alex Hackman, Andrew Finley Brenan, Lazarus G, Sam Lutfi, D.A. Noe, الخليفي سلطان, Piya Shedden, KatieMarie Magnone, Scott Satovsky Jr, Charles Southerland, Patrick D. Ashmore, charles george, Kevin Bealer, Chris Peters ---------- Looking for SciShow elsewhere on the internet? Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/scishow Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/scishow Tumblr: http://scishow.tumblr.com Instagram: http://instagram.com/thescishow ----------
        References:
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
        https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abou...
        https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/med...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        http://jem.rupress.org/content/12/5/696
        https://blogs.plos.org/workinprogress...
        https://link.springer.com/article/10....
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://qualitysafety.bmj.com/content...
        https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/7/2...
        https://cda-adc.ca/jcda/vol-66/issue-...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
        https://www.genome.gov/25520238/onlin...
        http://www.brooklyn.cuny.edu/bc/ahp/M...
        https://history.nih.gov/exhibits/nire...
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...
        https://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...
        http://www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/dict...
        https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/mende...
        https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/Plate-Tect...
        http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/...
        https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Fea...
        https://www.nationalgeographic.org/en...
        http://www.indiana.edu/~geol105/image...

        ...
        video is about 13 minutes long

        Comment


        • How Earth Would Look If All The Ice Melted
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbiRNT_gWUQ

          A History of Earth's Climate
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC_2WXyORGA

          Both a bit tilted/biased, but provide some perspectives ...
          Last edited by G David Bock; 13 Jul 19, 12:44.

          Comment


          • David bock asked for graph showing co2 rise vs temperature rise ,

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
              David bock asked for graph showing co2 rise vs temperature rise ,
              The problem is in a complex system with many variables, almost none of which can be accounted for or eliminated, correlation does not equal causation. That is a cum hoc fallacy.



              As the graph I put up shows there's a correlation between a decrease in pirates and temperature. Therefore pirates must be causing Gorebal Warming.

              Just a quick list of the top five greenhouse gases shows that focus on one is fallacious.

              1. Water vapor
              2. CO2 carbon dioxide
              3. CH4 methane
              4. NO2 nitrous oxide
              5. O ozone

              There's a whole raft more after that including a big number of Sulphur compounds. So, once again, I'm not buying the anthropogenic CO2 version.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                The problem is in a complex system with many variables, almost none of which can be accounted for or eliminated, correlation does not equal causation. That is a cum hoc fallacy.



                As the graph I put up shows there's a correlation between a decrease in pirates and temperature. Therefore pirates must be causing Gorebal Warming.

                Just a quick list of the top five greenhouse gases shows that focus on one is fallacious.

                1. Water vapor
                2. CO2 carbon dioxide
                3. CH4 methane
                4. NO2 nitrous oxide
                5. O ozone

                There's a whole raft more after that including a big number of Sulphur compounds. So, once again, I'm not buying the anthropogenic CO2 version.
                Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc?
                What you have is a currently not proven in laboratory correlation, not a false assumption....
                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                Comment


                • Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                  Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc?
                  What you have is a currently not proven in laboratory correlation, not a false assumption....
                  It is sufficiently unproven that we shouldn't rush to destroy the global economy with half-assed attempts to "fix" the problem, particularly when those recommended solutions (solar / wind, battery cars, mass transit) are all proven economic failures.

                  Comment


                  • are all proven economic failures.

                    i disagree in fact i have been driving an electric car for the passed two weeks a leaf .
                    https://www.yourleaf.org/
                    the electric power to recharge comes from hydroelectric and the car has zero emission.
                    my employer now has all electric car or hybrids .
                    i watched a program about a plane all electric that flew around the world on solar power no other source of energy
                    sweden now has electric commercial boats
                    hawaii uses solar energy to heat hot water and make electricity
                    in conclusion i would say that you are wrong
                    electric, solar, wind ,is taking off

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
                      (…)
                      my employer now has all electric car or hybrids .
                      That fight seems almost done, just yesterday it was reported here that Dyson, of vacuum cleaner fame, moves his act to Singapore to start producing electric (car) batteries in Asia.

                      https://fortune.com/2019/02/26/singa...i-dyson-tesla/

                      However, a month before writing off its investment, Dyson filed a patent of its own for a technology that, according to the filing, “provides a simple, fast and low-cost way of producing a solid-state cell.” In an interview last year, Dyson claimed his company has two solid-state batteries in development— potentially one for use in its vacuums and one for its new car. The company didn’t respond to Fortune’s request for comment on whether its EV would use a solid-state battery.
                      It will not be long before you will wonder why we ever made cars, without an electric engine....
                      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
                      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
                        are all proven economic failures.

                        i disagree in fact i have been driving an electric car for the passed two weeks a leaf .
                        https://www.yourleaf.org/
                        the electric power to recharge comes from hydroelectric and the car has zero emission.
                        my employer now has all electric car or hybrids .
                        i watched a program about a plane all electric that flew around the world on solar power no other source of energy
                        sweden now has electric commercial boats
                        hawaii uses solar energy to heat hot water and make electricity
                        in conclusion i would say that you are wrong
                        electric, solar, wind ,is taking off
                        Then why does the price of electricity rise, and rise markedly-- doubling and even tripling-- as the use of solar and wind generation goes up?



                        All the leading nations on percentage of wind and solar have some of the highest per kwh electrical costs on the planet.

                        Battery cars are not that popular. Norway and California both almost mandate and heavily subsidize them yet, they remain a small fraction of the market.



                        There are two reasons I can speculate on that make them unpopular: The first is that they are expensive. They cost far more than conventional vehicles. The second is that they are impractical for many people and many uses. For example, in about an hour, I'm driving to Tucson. That's about 160 miles away. From there, I'm driving this evening to Oracle Az, about 50 miles more. I'll be hauling a portable generator, and about 700 lbs. of tools and equipment as well.
                        That's, including around Tucson driving, about 250+ miles total. In Oracle, other than the generator I hauled with me I have no electric power available on the lots I'll be working at. I will still face a 155 mile drive home. That's a total of about 400 miles with only one break long enough to charge an electric vehicle but with nowhere to charge it.

                        So, tell me how a battery powered vehicle would work for me?

                        As for either, there is little resale market due to the price of replacement battery packs. Would you keep your Tesla or whatever for 15 to 20 years in service without switching to a new vehicle? The cost of a replacement Leaf battery pack appears to be somewhere between about $3,000 and $7,000 not including installation. I'd guess to run the car 15 years you're looking at 2 or 3 swap outs. That's insane! That's like having to swap out the motor in a conventional vehicle every 5 to 7 years.

                        Wind and solar wouldn't go anywhere if it wasn't continuously heavily subsidized by government. That is, given endless subsidies of between 30 and 50% of the cost. Solar is, singularly, the least efficient and most costly way to make electricity there is of the major systems available today.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by marktwain View Post

                          Formaldehyde actually lead to the vast public health network. The dairy industry 's pundits claimed that 'because formaldehyde made the milk taste pure, it must be killing the bacteria - any durn fool can see that.'

                          Unfortunately, the formaldehyde masked the smell and taste of spoilage, which was still occurring.
                          https://www.theamericanconservative....-deborah-blum/
                          Re C02: The amount in the atmosphere is 'fingerprinted' since the C02 molecule resonates at the same frequency as the thermal return form earth. Nitrogen, as N2, doesn't, so it is not a greenhouse gas.

                          I agree with slick-meister that there are probably other causes, and we should:
                          a. Track them down
                          b. consider if global dimming is a better alternative than an economic disruption of c02 control, and develop a dimming network with the least side effects.

                          I am, I like to think, a realist at heart.

                          FOLOWING THIS UP;
                          here IS AN EXCELLENT ARTICKLE THAT EXPLAINS resonance in greenhouse gas molecules. NOAA has a complete library on greenhouse gasses and global warming.

                          Assuming, of course, that one doesn't consider the NOAA to be the 'portal to Satan,,,"
                          https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring...ouse-gases.php

                          https://www.bing.com/search?q=NOAA+g...ox&FORM=IESR02

                          Last edited by marktwain; 12 Jul 19, 14:00.
                          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                          Comment


                          • Electric vehicles would be nice for congested areas that have pollution problems.
                            We hunt the hunters

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
                              " ... i watched a program about a plane all electric that flew around the world on solar power no other source of energy ... "
                              I think that's the same one I saw.
                              In its own right, certainly a remarkable achievement but the aircraft itself was very lightly built and carried a very small load.
                              I don't think it was carrying much more than one or two people and their basic necessities.
                              With even the tiniest fraction of the load carried by a "smallish" commercial passenger plane - let's say, a Boeing 737-800 - the thing would have no chance of getting off the ground.
                              So I guess we have a very long way to go, if ever, before we see a PRACTICAL aircraft design that relies entirely on solar power and can carry a worthwhile load.
                              Last edited by panther3485; 12 Jul 19, 21:19.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • It's not so much that environmentalism has become a religion, to some extent that has always been the case, rather social justice has infiltrated most institutions degrading the standards for evidence and reason. AOC is not an abnormality but is representative of what are universities are producing.
                                We hunt the hunters

                                Comment

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