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  • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Rather it was citizens electing their representatives (not citizens of "Belgium", but citizens of Gent) and those representatives then choosing which Sovereign to support.

    https://www.newnetherlandinstitute.o...of-abjuration/

    Seems you went looking for the history of the nation state "Belgium", which is commendable, but you should be looking at the history of the Flemish (or other) city states, nation states came late to the dance here..

    Too bad so little of it is translated in English..try something like this :

    https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/~...nDemocracy.pdf

    Citizen rights are neither "universal" nor "inalienable" - they follow from very specific historical circumstances most notably the friction between the political power of the "land owners", and the economic power of the citizens..
    The idea of an elected monarch goes back quite a way although where this system existed it was usually the nobility that did the electing. Poland once used it. Even the Russian Tsar was at one time the choice of the Boyars - until Ivan the Terrible smashed their power. It was often a mechanism to avoid civil war between competing noble houses.
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
      The idea of an elected monarch goes back quite a way although where this system existed it was usually the nobility that did the electing. Poland once used it. Even the Russian Tsar was at one time the choice of the Boyars - until Ivan the Terrible smashed their power. It was often a mechanism to avoid civil war between competing noble houses.
      That's yet another matter yes, but I'm specifically talking about citizens (burgers) electing their representatives and obtaining "rights" long before the nation state, see also my edit above

      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

        That's yet another matter yes, but I'm specifically talking about citizens (burgers) electing their representatives and obtaining "rights" long before the nation state, see also my edit above
        A number of French towns and cities negotiated various rights and liberties from the Valois monarchs. Before entering La Rochelle for example the monarch had to swear an oath (administered by the Mayor) to uphold the municipal liberties. As later dynasties increased the centralised power of the French crown these rights were eroded. The rights applied to the civic elite - the burgers who ran the town and elected the Mayor - being born in a town didn't automatically make you a citizen and there was often a property based qualification.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
          A number of French towns and cities negotiated various rights and liberties from the Valois monarchs. Before entering La Rochelle for example the monarch had to swear an oath (administered by the Mayor) to uphold the municipal liberties. As later dynasties increased the centralised power of the French crown these rights were eroded. The rights applied to the civic elite - the burgers who ran the town and elected the Mayor - being born in a town didn't automatically make you a citizen.
          True - and by all means it should be said that the evolution described above was not unique to the low countries, it happened in parallel (or even quite independently from) elsewhere, still I'm with Pirenne there when he concludes :

          Nowhere in northern Europe did democratic institutions grow up with more energy and result than in the towns on the banks of the Scheldt and the Meuse.
          The suggestion that “the people” electing their leaders was a “"great experiment”" of "“240-250 years ago"” in the colonies, is just insane and can really not be left undisputed on a history board.

          Which was after all the point here
          Last edited by Snowygerry; 03 Jun 19, 08:52.
          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
          Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            True - and by all means it should be said that the evolution described above was not unique to the low countries, it happened in parallel (or even quite independently from) elsewhere,..

            but the suggestion that “the people” electing their leaders was a “"great experiment”" of "“240-250 years ago"” is just insane and can really not be left undisputed on a history board.

            Which was after all the point here
            And my post added evidence to this effect
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • Why Our Intuition About Sea-Level Rise Is Wrong

              A geologist explains that climate change is not just about a global average sea rise.

              ...
              https://getpocket.com/explore/item/w...=pocket-newtab

              Comment


              • Space weather affects your daily life. It’s time to start paying attention.

                Meet the space-weather forecaster leading the charge to help us understand solar flares and geomagnetic storms before it’s too late.
                ...
                https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...ing-attention/

                Comment


                • First the denial of the demonstrated science, and now the attempts to stifle qualified people who disagree with the administration.

                  [FONT="&amp]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/white-house-blocked-intelligence-aides-written-testimony-saying-human-caused-climate-change-could-be-possibly-catastrophic/ar-AACysAa?ocid=spartandhp[/FONT]

                  'White House officials barred a State Department intelligence agency from
                  submitting written testimony this week
                  to the House Intelligence Committee warning that human-caused climate change could be “possibly catastrophic.” The move came after State officials refused to excise the document’s references to federal scientific findings on climate change.
                  '

                  Trump and his minions are pathetic.

                  Comment


                  • The wonderful thing about Trump is he keeps demonstrating that the establishment elites are not very elite. The other benifit of having someone outside the establishment has been that the establishment's opposition to him has opened a window into the propaganda machine that keeps them in power.

                    It would be extremely naive to think that Trump-Russia was a one of a kind hoax. Eisenhower spoke of the "military industrial complex" but that was just one aspect of corporatism. Captains and Kings have always had incestuous relationships. What many people fail to realize is that intellectual elite are necessarily part of those relationships either willingly or inadvertently.

                    It is very much the case that Gore got it exactly backwards. Global warming is not an inconvenient truth but a convenient truth. That the left has embraced global warming more than the right is largely an accident of history. You don't have to go that far back in history to find a time when science was dominated by people deeply enmeshed in the establishment. Even today because society has moved so far to the left that left leaning hegemony in the academy means that in intellectual circles being on the left is the establishment position. It's easy to imagine that if the right was still hegemonic they too would embrace global warming as a means to extend their power. Global warming is such a convenient truth that any authoritarian would be inclined to embrace it.

                    The problem is that the kind of people that embrace global warming are high in openness and low in conscientiousness. They are the kind of people that are good at identifying problems but poor at managing them. They are likely to just become tools of the global elitists.

                    If people were rational they would see that global warming is just one of many problems. Unfortunately the coalitional nature of the human ape means everything is political. Politics by it's nature focuses narrowly and intensely because that is the nature of the mob.

                    Mobs do not solve problems they create them. In a way that is the history of democracy that justifies the elites attitude towards popularism. As long as Trump keeps proving the elites to be wrong they look more and more like an elite mob.
                    We hunt the hunters

                    Comment


                    • Well, when climate "scientists" have a better track record of prediction than psychics, who have a better track record of predictions than climate scientists, I might put more credence in what they claim.

                      From the IPCC being wrong on most everything... Where are the "millions of climate refugees" they claimed would be fleeing rising seas and temperatures over a decade ago, as but one of literally hundreds of examples of how they got it wrong.

                      Climategate and the e-mail scandal. Sure, the true believers have shrugged it off, but it still stands as academic and scientific fraud.

                      Michael Mann's "hockey stick...."

                      Or, how he and other climate scientists have refused to release data and modelling even in lawsuits choosing to get hit with contempt charges instead...

                      The list goes on and on.

                      https://criticaluncertainties.com/20...pcc-got-wrong/

                      https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/12/...ipcc-is-wrong/

                      And, I sure as hell am not about to believe anything AlGore-- he's serial, err, cereal-- inventor of the Internet who got a D in astronomy in college has to say about climate change...

                      It isn't just the IPCC either. It's the whole climate change community. The world won't end in a decade. These guys have been predicting that sort of nonsense for nearly half a century now. Every time, they get it badly wrong.

                      Aside from all that, why the hell is the US State Department involved in a matter of science at all? They aren't scientists. Many aren't even able to walk and chew gum at the same time. They're diplomats and politicians. So, Trump is absolutely correct telling the State Department to get their nose out of something they have ZERO business in.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                        The wonderful thing about Trump is he keeps demonstrating that the establishment elites are not very elite. The other benifit of having someone outside the establishment has been that the establishment's opposition to him has opened a window into the propaganda machine that keeps them in power.

                        It would be extremely naive to think that Trump-Russia was a one of a kind hoax. Eisenhower spoke of the "military industrial complex" but that was just one aspect of corporatism. Captains and Kings have always had incestuous relationships. What many people fail to realize is that intellectual elite are necessarily part of those relationships either willingly or inadvertently.

                        It is very much the case that Gore got it exactly backwards. Global warming is not an inconvenient truth but a convenient truth. That the left has embraced global warming more than the right is largely an accident of history. You don't have to go that far back in history to find a time when science was dominated by people deeply enmeshed in the establishment. Even today because society has moved so far to the left that left leaning hegemony in the academy means that in intellectual circles being on the left is the establishment position. It's easy to imagine that if the right was still hegemonic they too would embrace global warming as a means to extend their power. Global warming is such a convenient truth that any authoritarian would be inclined to embrace it.

                        The problem is that the kind of people that embrace global warming are high in openness and low in conscientiousness. They are the kind of people that are good at identifying problems but poor at managing them. They are likely to just become tools of the global elitists.

                        If people were rational they would see that global warming is just one of many problems. Unfortunately the coalitional nature of the human ape means everything is political. Politics by it's nature focuses narrowly and intensely because that is the nature of the mob.

                        Mobs do not solve problems they create them. In a way that is the history of democracy that justifies the elites attitude towards popularism. As long as Trump keeps proving the elites to be wrong they look more and more like an elite mob.
                        It's Gorebal Warming. Gorebal Warming is the insane belief that AlGore (one word) inventor of the Internet knows anything about climate change, or science for that matter...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                          It's Gorebal Warming. Gorebal Warming is the insane belief that AlGore (one word) inventor of the Internet knows anything about climate change, or science for that matter...
                          No matter how stupid Gore is he is representative of the elites on the left and right. Both take advantage of anything that will stir up a mob and make sure that it doesn't negatively affect them personally. I find the McCain's and Romney's as vapid as Gore. It's no coincidence that the establishment is united in their opposition to Trump the guy none of them wanted at a dinner party. Illegal immigration and global warming are the same in this sense. They don't negatively affect the elites. Gore profits from green energy and the Romney's of the world benefit from globalism. The Bush's are friends of Ken Lay and the Clinton's make millions in Russia. It has always been this way but Trump as a member of the untouchable class exposed not only the lie of competent elites but the hypocrisy.
                          We hunt the hunters

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                            The wonderful thing about Trump...
                            There is no 'wonderful thing about Trump.' He has hurt the United States immensely in a little over two years which the next president, if he has the character and skill, will have to repair.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Massena View Post

                              There is no 'wonderful thing about Trump.' He has hurt the United States immensely in a little over two years which the next president, if he has the character and skill, will have to repair.
                              And you were where during the eight years prior to Trump Komrade Kevin?

                              Trump is undoing the eight years of socialist damage done by your communist buddy, Barry, and the rest of you Bolsheviks.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                                And you were where during the eight years prior to Trump Komrade Kevin?
                                Yea really and what has all that to do with Climate Change which has been going on for EONS and all the arrogant Idiots that are telling us that we can do something about it, but the TDSrs are jumping on the Bandwagon telling us that it is Trumps fault, please give a Sane person a break.

                                Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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