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  • [QUOTE=Arthwys;n5117021]
    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

    The term "climate refugee" may seem new, the concept is ages old. 15,000 years ago where you, Mr. shack, and I live was covered in a mile thick glacier of the Ice Age. Then "global warming" happened, the NATURAL version, and within a few thousand years things had changed significantly and there was nothing anthropogenic about it.

    Science begins with precision, in measures, data, and terms; and when many fail to be specific if they are speaking of Natural or Human-caused(anthropogenic) they start off invaliding their positions and opinions. We so-called skeptics and deniers don't deny NATURAL Climate change, there's evidence of that going back 4 1/2 billion years. What we are skeptical about and will deny until firm evidence is presented is the hypothesis that what is currently occurring is almost entire the result of human activity of the past couple centuries. And specifically that the main cause is current CO2 levels which at 0.04%, or 1/2500 of atmospheric content have yet to be proven in the lab to actually transfer the temporary heat retention(which is quickly lost) to the other 2,499 parts. So far, that appears to be both hubris and unscientific.

    Actually in certain cases the changes happened in a much shorter time frame with much more cataclysmic results. I'm thinking scablands of Washington as an example.

    My issue isn't whether the current climate change is anthropogenic in nature or not. We know that climate change is occurring, the cause (or combination of causes in my own opinion) is only relevant in working to find a solution. The challenge is that there are few, if any governments on the planet that actually seem interested in addressing it in any meaningful way... because that's future people's problem and we all want to get elected again, so we'll just push it on down the line.

    At least that's the impression I get from everything I see and read.
    Sorta of, but I think it is more a matter of ignorance and shortage of data and lab proofs, etc. We(Humans) are not sure on all the causes and drivers of climate changes, hence are casting about in the dark for "solutions". Problem is our ignorance of causes means we may not "know of the causes in need of solutions", let alone what those "solutions" should be.

    One of many reasons I and other "skeptics/deniers" remain hesitant to rush into "geo-engineering" solutions to a "problem" not yet defined, yet alone for which any clear and/or obvious solution may apply. Assuming there is a human solution other than general adaptation.

    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

    Comment


    • Dr. Tim Ball ; A different perspective

      History / Philosophy / Theory
      May 9, 2019

      World Leader’s Ignorance About Climate Change Continues Despite Simple, Obvious Evidence.


      https://drtimball.ca/
      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

      Comment


      • To be able to fill leisure intelligently is the last product of civilization."” Arnold Toynbee Until Trump, and very obviously with his exception, weak, ignorant, pandering, people lead the western nations. They want leadership...
        A very different perspective indeed

        What does the bolded part there mean exactly ? It's not English is it ?

        Edit, he wrote a book apparently,

        "A Study Of History" no less, 12 volumes would you believe it, that'll "fill someones leisure intelligently" if nothing else does...

        https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...12118/page/n13

        Toynbee's goal was to trace the development and decay of 19 world civilizations in the historical record, applying his model to each of these civilizations, detailing the stages through which they all pass: genesis, growth, time of troubles, universal state, and disintegration.
        Strong echoes of Spenglers "Untergang des Abendlandes" there..
        Last edited by Snowygerry; 24 May 19, 10:05.
        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

        Comment


        • ^ HOWEVER, examination of that historical timeline shows a preference for the concept of Royal(elitist) Bloodlines(genetics) as the select and chosen leaders so while history shows their conflict and shuffling of such, in detail, the concept remained constant up until about 240-250 years ago the emergence of the USA/Concept~Great Experimentation of "the people" electing their Leaders.

          TRUE, was still mostly from an elite and genetic lineage, but at least a start in trying to change a millennial old system/process that left most of humanity "out in the cold" and ineffectual in how and whom they might be ruled by.

          The Process is still being hashed out and corrected, but at least after centuries to millennia there is some sign that "we the people" might finally have a say in our destiny.

          Now if only our owners and overlords will comply/assist, maybe we can shift the past courses towards a different future ...
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

          Comment


          • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
            ^ HOWEVER, examination of that historical timeline shows a preference for the concept of Royal(elitist) Bloodlines(genetics) as the select and chosen leaders so while history shows their conflict and shuffling of such, in detail, the concept remained constant up until about 240-250 years ago the emergence of the USA/Concept~Great Experimentation of "the people" electing their Leaders.
            Good sir, we've been electing our "leaders" ("representatives" we call them, we don't like leaders) since the 15th century and before here..

            https://www.jstor.org/stable/4461427...n_tab_contents

            Now if only our owners and overlords will comply/assist, maybe we can shift the past courses towards a different future ...
            The future is just the past in a new frock
            Last edited by Snowygerry; 27 May 19, 05:17.
            High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              ^ HOWEVER, examination of that historical timeline shows a preference for the concept of Royal(elitist) Bloodlines(genetics) as the select and chosen leaders so while history shows their conflict and shuffling of such, in detail, the concept remained constant up until about 240-250 years ago the emergence of the USA/Concept~Great Experimentation of "the people" electing their Leaders.

              TRUE, was still mostly from an elite and genetic lineage, but at least a start in trying to change a millennial old system/process that left most of humanity "out in the cold" and ineffectual in how and whom they might be ruled by.

              The Process is still being hashed out and corrected, but at least after centuries to millennia there is some sign that "we the people" might finally have a say in our destiny.

              Now if only our owners and overlords will comply/assist, maybe we can shift the past courses towards a different future ...
              Nope, not even close.

              The experiments with democracy predate the United States by about 2200 years give or take. That's Athens back in 507 B.C.E. That may not even be the first occurrence of it, but just the first that we have records/memory of.

              Rome established a great Republic, and we know how that worked out...
              If you apply the same model to the last 200 years you still see the elitist angle playing out. It's just not so uniquely about bloodlines and being the "right sort of people"

              Now it is as much about power and influence, the ability and willingness to wield either or both that help determine the "Leaders" of today.
              BoRG
              "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                Good sir, we've been electing our "leaders" ("representatives" we call them, we don't like leaders) since the 15th century and before here..

                https://www.jstor.org/stable/4461427...n_tab_contents



                The future is just the past in a new frock
                Well "good sir" I wasn't coming from an only North European perspective of the past few centuries, but rather a global scale, spanning the past 6-10,000 years since the last Ice Age (and Deluge ?) when humans re-booted culture and civilizations. From that larger scale and perspective, your example would seem to be within the less than 1% exception to the rule.

                Furthermore, in the case of Belgium, and for benefit of other readers here, it would seem that your example may be more of a Sovereign "granting" to his subjects rather than a concept considered universal and inalienable;
                ...
                The Treaty of Verdun in 843 divided the region into Middle and West Francia and therefore into a set of more or less independent fiefdoms which, during the Middle Ages, were vassals either of the King of France or of the Holy Roman Emperor.[23]

                Many of these fiefdoms were united in the Burgundian Netherlands of the 14th and 15th centuries.[24]Emperor Charles V extended the personal union of the Seventeen Provinces in the 1540s, making it far more than a personal union by the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549 and increased his influence over the Prince-Bishopric of Liège.[25]

                The Eighty Years' War (1568–1648) divided the Low Countries into the northern United Provinces (Belgica Foederata in Latin, the "Federated Netherlands") and the Southern Netherlands (Belgica Regia, the "Royal Netherlands"). The latter were ruled successively by the Spanish (Spanish Netherlands) and the Austrian Habsburgs (Austrian Netherlands) and comprised most of modern Belgium. This was the theatre of most Franco-Spanish and Franco-Austrian wars during the 17th and 18th centuries.

                Following the campaigns of 1794 in the French Revolutionary Wars, the Low Countries—including territories that were never nominally under Habsburg rule, such as the Prince-Bishopric of Liège—were annexed by the French First Republic, ending Austrian rule in the region. The reunification of the Low Countries as the United Kingdom of the Netherlands occurred at the dissolution of the First French Empire in 1815, after the defeat of Napoleon. Independent Belgium





                Episode of the Belgian Revolution of 1830 (1834), by Gustaf Wappers




                In 1830, the Belgian Revolution led to the separation of the Southern Provinces from the Netherlands and to the establishment of a Catholic and bourgeois, officially French-speaking and neutral, independent Belgium under a provisional government and a national congress.[26][27] Since the installation of Leopold I as king on 21 July 1831, now celebrated as Belgium's National Day, Belgium has been a constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, with a laicist constitution based on the Napoleonic code.[28] Although the franchise was initially restricted, universal suffrage for men was introduced after the general strike of 1893 (with plural voting until 1919) and for women in 1949.
                ...
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium



                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                Comment


                • ^ BTW, The "Present" is the "just the past in a new frock".
                  The Future remains to be seen and could be a break from the past, such is always the potential hope anyway.
                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Arthwys View Post

                    Nope, not even close.

                    The experiments with democracy predate the United States by about 2200 years give or take. That's Athens back in 507 B.C.E. That may not even be the first occurrence of it, but just the first that we have records/memory of.

                    Rome established a great Republic, and we know how that worked out...
                    If you apply the same model to the last 200 years you still see the elitist angle playing out. It's just not so uniquely about bloodlines and being the "right sort of people"

                    Now it is as much about power and influence, the ability and willingness to wield either or both that help determine the "Leaders" of today.
                    For a start, see my response to Snowygerry above.

                    While there may have been some exceptions, they remain in the most part a less than 1% exception to the human history of the past 6-10,000 years and often short fall of the other details that emerged as the USA post 1783;
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...olutionary_War

                    Rome's Republic was subject to numerous impacts, topics for another thread/sub-forum; but one of most significant was the increase of talented "slave" labor sub-planting the "native" citizens taking their jobs/productivity/livelihoods and leading to an increase of population "on the dole", with subsequent increase of national debt and inclination to support "leaders" willing to subvert the Senate and Republic structure. More a case of flaws in the construct of the Republic and it's execution rather than the basic concept of a "republic" in general.

                    The Founders of the USA took these few and rare prior examples into consideration when formatting our Constitution and recognized that the weak point/Achilles heal would be the quality of the informed and involved citizenry to uphold, support and perpetuate the effectiveness of the Constitution. The foundation of any form of government is the support and involvement of the citizenry, even those governments that are tyrannical.

                    There are also matters of structural detail, for example your case of Athens @507B.C.E.;
                    ...
                    The Athenian system of democracy was different from the modern system because the Athenian government only granted the rights of citizenship to men who owned property and who had completed their military training. ...

                    https://www.enotes.com/homework-help...mocracy-298041
                    ...
                    Not quite the same as we saw in the USA about 240+ years ago or in later versions within Europe.

                    As for the "bloodlines", the san grael, or "genetic strains", this goes back millennia and may be an aspect of chosen "wardens" among humans established by the off-world/non-terrestrial "owners"/"landlords" as presented by Charles Fort and later similar investigators and researchers;
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fort
                    ...

                    Would we if we could, educate and sophisticate pigs, geese, cattle? Would it be wise to establish diplomatic relations with the hen that now functions, satisfied with mere sense of achievement by way of compensation? I think we're property"
                    • Ch. 12 at resologist.net
                    • ...
                    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Charles_Fort
                    Last edited by G David Bock; 29 May 19, 16:48.
                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                    Comment


                    • Further footnote regarding Holy Grail = San Graal(Grael); a genetic bloodline rather than a drinking vessel/chalice:

                      Laurence Gardner (17 May 1943 – 12 August 2010) was a British author and lecturer. He wrote on subjects such as the Jesus bloodline, anti-gravity and the cloning of Adam and Eve.
                      ...
                      Laurence Gardner's first book Bloodline of the Holy Grail was published during 1996.[1] The book was serialized in the Daily Mail and was a best seller.[2] He used his books to propose several theories, including a belief that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had married and had children, whose descendants included King Arthur and the House of Stuart.[2] In Lost Secrets of the Sacred Ark he claimed that the Ark of the Covenant was a machine for manufacturing "monatomic gold" – a supposed elixir which could be used to extend life.[3] His books also included theories about Freemasonry, the Knights Templar, The Holy Grail and proposed connections between Atenism and Judaism.
                      ...
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Gardner
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                      Comment


                      • What does the Grail have to do with Environmentalism and Global Warming?

                        And why is this a "sticky topic"?
                        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          What does the Grail have to do with Environmentalism and Global Warming?

                          And why is this a "sticky topic"?
                          I can't say on the "sticky topic" thing, wasn't my doing.

                          As for "grail" etc., see #1038 above and follow the chain. One aspect would be the consideration that ACC/AGW are political and origins and nature of politics & politicians may apply.
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                          Comment


                          • Dr tim ball is a nut job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Ball

                            Ball "...never had a reputation in the scientific community as a noted climatologist and authority on global warming," and that he "...is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist.

                            Ball claimed, in an article written for the Calgary Herald, that he was the first person to receive a PhD in climatology in Canada, and that he had been a professor for 28 years,[48]claims he also made in a letter to then-prime minister of Canada, Paul Martin.[49] Dan Johnson, a professor of environmental science at the University of Lethbridge, countered his claim on April 23, 2006, in a letter to the Herald stating that when Ball received his PhD in 1983, "Canada already had PhDs in climatology," and that Ball had only been a professor for eight years, rather than 28 as he had claimed

                            Michael E. Mann, who is in a lawsuit with Ball, has called Ball "perhaps the most prominent climate change denier in Canada."[35] The Frontier Centre for Public Policy, a Canadian think tank, states that Ball has disputed anthropogenic global warming since the mid 1990s, and has asserted that global warming is due to natural variations.[36] Ball has spoken twice at The Heartland Institute's International Conference on Climate Change, where he was presented as a former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg.[37][38][39]However, critics point out that Ball was a professor of geography, not climatology, and that the University of Winnipeg has never had a climatology department

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
                              Dr tim ball is a nut job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Ball

                              Ball "...never had a reputation in the scientific community as a noted climatologist and authority on global warming," and that he "...is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist.

                              Ball claimed, in an article written for the Calgary Herald, that he was the first person to receive a PhD in climatology in Canada, and that he had been a professor for 28 years,[48]claims he also made in a letter to then-prime minister of Canada, Paul Martin.[49] Dan Johnson, a professor of environmental science at the University of Lethbridge, countered his claim on April 23, 2006, in a letter to the Herald stating that when Ball received his PhD in 1983, "Canada already had PhDs in climatology," and that Ball had only been a professor for eight years, rather than 28 as he had claimed

                              Michael E. Mann, who is in a lawsuit with Ball, has called Ball "perhaps the most prominent climate change denier in Canada."[35] The Frontier Centre for Public Policy, a Canadian think tank, states that Ball has disputed anthropogenic global warming since the mid 1990s, and has asserted that global warming is due to natural variations.[36] Ball has spoken twice at The Heartland Institute's International Conference on Climate Change, where he was presented as a former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg.[37][38][39]However, critics point out that Ball was a professor of geography, not climatology, and that the University of Winnipeg has never had a climatology department
                              So, we have Michael "Hockey stick" Mann who "fudged" data into Gordian knots is suing some guy that is supposedly a shill for the oil and gas industry and who you smear with a logical fallacy (Appeal to Authority... or in this case lack of credentials along with Guilt by Association).

                              https://principia-scientific.org/bre...ey-stick-mann/

                              Penn State climate scientist, Michael ‘hockey stick’ Mann commits contempt of court in the ‘climate science trial of the century.’ Prominent alarmist shockingly defies judge and refuses to surrender data for open court examination. Only possible outcome: Mann’s humiliation, defeat and likely criminal investigation in the U.S.

                              The defendant in the libel trial, the 79-year-old Canadian climatologist, Dr Tim Ball (above, right) is expected to instruct his British Columbia attorneys to trigger mandatory punitive court sanctions, including a ruling that Mann did act with criminal intent when using public funds to commit climate data fraud. Mann’s imminent defeat is set to send shock waves worldwide within the climate science community as the outcome will be both a legal and scientific vindication of U.S. President Donald Trump’s claims that climate scare stories are a “hoax.”
                              Seems Mann screwed up suing Ball...

                              https://principia-scientific.org/sho...climate-fraud/

                              https://www.climatedepot.com/2018/02...t-dr-tim-ball/

                              At the same time Mann is facing potential failure of lawsuits against others who have questioned his veracity:

                              https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...hael_mann.html

                              https://reason.com/2018/02/11/whatev...el-manns-defam

                              It seems the "settled science" of climate change is to be settled in court by lawyers for proponents of Gorebal Warming.



                              Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 01 Jun 19, 14:47.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                                Furthermore, in the case of Belgium, and for benefit of other readers here, it would seem that your example may be more of a Sovereign "granting" to his subjects rather than a concept considered universal and inalienable;
                                Rather it was citizens electing their representatives (not citizens of "Belgium", but citizens of Gent (burgers)) and those representatives then choosing which Sovereign to support.

                                https://www.newnetherlandinstitute.o...of-abjuration/

                                Seems you went looking for the history of the nation state "Belgium", which is commendable, but you should be looking at the history of the Flemish (or other) city states, nation states came late to the dance here..

                                Too bad so little of it is translated in English..try something like this :

                                https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/~...nDemocracy.pdf

                                In 1127 when Charles the Good was assassinated, they rose unanimously to avenge him, and the loyalty, which made them take up their arms, provoked also their first interference in the politics of the county. They claimed a voice in the choice of the new prince. They dictated their conditions to William of Normandy without troubling themselves about the orders of the king of France; they rose against him when he broke his promises, and it was they who established on the throne a new dynasty in the person of Thierry of Alsace (1128)
                                Whether they fought with their princes or lived on good terms with them, the towns sooner or later, at the end of the 11th or the beginning of the 12th century, achieved their aim. Henceforth they constituted corporate persons. Their population was no longer a simple group of human beings, recognizable by its social characteristics. It enjoyed its own law: it had become a class with a legal status. The burghers, like the nobles, obtained legal recognition. For the latter the profession of arms, for the former the profession of trade and industry, had in the long run won the official recognition of a privileged position.

                                Citizen rights are neither "universal" nor "inalienable" - they follow from very specific historical circumstances most notably the friction between the political power of the "land owners", and the economic power of the citizens..
                                Last edited by Snowygerry; 03 Jun 19, 05:50.
                                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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