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  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

    I watched that video. He's right. Solar is worse than even he makes it out to be. To get one kilowatt-day of power out of a solar plant reliably, you need about five (5) kilowatts of installed capacity.

    It roughly breaks down like this:

    You need 1 KW to supply the daytime need. You need another to supply early morning and late afternoon or when the weather is poor and the plant isn't producing. The last three are necessary to provide energy to charge whatever storage method you are using to provide power when the sun goes down and to make up for losses in the storage system, including capacity for when the plant is not producing at full capacity due to weather.
    Thus, you need five times the actual use capacity of the plant. This then becomes problematic when the plant is producing very efficiently at full capacity but demand is low. The plant has to dump that extra power or otherwise use it up. A common method now being used is to simply give it away, even pay to give it away. That is the power company pays you to use more electricity.

    Nuclear is the way to fix the carbon issue, if you think carbon is the issue. Nuclear is massively concentrated power that is very reliable. The "problems" with nuclear like spent fuel, etc., are really boogiemen created by the anti-nuclear hysteria crowd. Nuclear is reliable, safe, and clean. Almost all of the arguments against it are based on hysteria and ignorance.
    There must be a place for solar, buildings need roofs?
    We hunt the hunters

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    • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

      There must be a place for solar, buildings need roofs?
      It's just totally inefficient. Fixed arrays on top of homes and what-have-you are not that efficient. They rarely face directly at the sun so they produce less than nameplate like 99% of the time. If you add in the cost of a DC inverter and battery storage, over 20 years your solar panel system will cost more to maintain and operate than purchased electricity at anything up to about $.18 a KW. That's about a 50% increase over current costs in the US.
      The only reason people are buying the systems is they are heavily subsidized (30 to 50% in the US depending on state). That means your own costs bring it down to where it's just a bit cheaper than buying electricity. But, without those heavy government subsidies, nobody would buy solar.

      But, here in Phoenix, those large expensive, and uneconomical solar arrays do make for nice shade when you park at a store...





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      • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

        There must be a place for solar, buildings need roofs?
        Except these usually set a few inches above the existing roof and present some maintenance issues. In Winter with snow fall you'll need to sweep them off, in Summer when dust settles on them they need to be washed off. The lifespan of many asphalt shingle roofs aren't quite as long as that claimed for the solar panels, so if repairs and/or replace of roof shingles is needed, you have those panels in the way, to deal with.

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        • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

          Except these usually set a few inches above the existing roof and present some maintenance issues. In Winter with snow fall you'll need to sweep them off, in Summer when dust settles on them they need to be washed off. The lifespan of many asphalt shingle roofs aren't quite as long as that claimed for the solar panels, so if repairs and/or replace of roof shingles is needed, you have those panels in the way, to deal with.
          It gets worse. The newest fad is for companies to lease you the panels. I have several neighbors who did that. One wanted to sell his home. It took several months because more than one buyer walked away when issues with the solar leasing company came up. Another had problems with their panels. The company took nearly a month to send someone to finally fix them. In the meantime, the homeowner couldn't do anything with the solar panels himself because he didn't own them.
          Or, get a good storm like a hailstorm and have them wrecked. Watch how much your homeowner's insurance jumps by when they get replaced.

          Solana, the biggest commercial solar array in Arizona has had multiple fines (the biggest being $1.5 million) for excess pollution by ADEQ (Arizona's equivalent of the EPA). A couple of years ago it got hit by a microburst storm. Took the plant off-line for weeks and wrecked like about a third of it. The repairs to return to full service took about six months.

          Look at California... They are having regular brownouts now due to the massive increase in "Green" energy there. They also are paying one of the highest rates per KW in the US. Better, because of the massive fluctuations in solar output, companies in California have had to PAY companies in Arizona and Nevada to take the excess lowering rates in those neighboring states!

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          • Make Love, Not CO2.

            Unfortunately, none have stopped breathing ~ exhaling CO2

            Youth of the world have bought the propaganda and are failing to learn science it would seem; Students globally protest warming, pleading for their future

            https://apnews.com/e53351b075884886937f78e3b2118621

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            • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              Make Love, Not CO2.

              Unfortunately, none have stopped breathing ~ exhaling CO2

              Youth of the world have bought the propaganda and are failing to learn science it would seem; Students globally protest warming, pleading for their future

              https://apnews.com/e53351b075884886937f78e3b2118621
              The joys of a "liberal arts" education. I remember my college days where I took astronomy as an elective because I thought it was an easy A for an elective course. The class was full of liberal arts and fine arts majors who were in near apoplexy over what they thought was a "hard" course because you had to do math and science.

              I was floored-- astounded by their illiteracy of both subjects. Worst, once the prof realized I was taking it as an elective and expected it to be easy, he made me a defacto TA and told me I'd get an A but only if I helped the other students through the course.

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              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                <snip> ... In Winter with snow fall you'll need to sweep them off, in Summer when dust settles on them they need to be washed off. The lifespan of many asphalt shingle roofs aren't quite as long as that claimed for the solar panels, so if repairs and/or replace of roof shingles is needed, you have those panels in the way, to deal with.
                I guess that's one practical disadvantage not applicable to my part of the World.
                NO snow in winter, lots of sunshine most of the year and - being somewhat closer to the equator - slightly stronger rays.
                Plus (and this was my own choice when I built the house) strong clay tiles that will probably still be viable after I'm gone. But ....

                Only thing is, I haven't bothered installing any solar panels yet.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post

                  I guess that's one practical disadvantage not applicable to my part of the World.
                  NO snow in winter, lots of sunshine most of the year and - being somewhat closer to the equator - slightly stronger rays.
                  Plus (and this was my own choice when I built the house) strong clay tiles that will probably still be viable after I'm gone. But ....

                  Only thing is, I haven't bothered installing any solar panels yet.
                  Good for you. Solar panels, even if you get them wholesale and install them yourself, are simply paying for 20 years of electricity now rather than on an installment plan. You really save nothing. Solar is so inefficient it hurts.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                    Good for you. Solar panels, even if you get them wholesale and install them yourself, are simply paying for 20 years of electricity now rather than on an installment plan. You really save nothing. Solar is so inefficient it hurts.
                    Yeah.

                    My guess is that in climates and latitudes such as mine, solar would work a bit better than in more temperate/cooler zones but it's still a darned big expense up front.
                    Also at my age now, I'll be retiring from work soon and probably moving into a smaller property anyway. (Our current place is where we raised our family. You know, 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, fairly large gardens etc. Too much work and upkeep now.)
                    I suppose if I was gonna do it, I should have done it 20+ years ago but we were scraping for a $ back then. We've got the $ now but there's not much point anymore.

                    Regardless, I'm not convinced I could have made much difference to global warming either way.
                    (Reminding myself that this is the thread topic.)
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                      Good for you. Solar panels, even if you get them wholesale and install them yourself, are simply paying for 20 years of electricity now rather than on an installment plan. You really save nothing. Solar is so inefficient it hurts.
                      Predictions are that solar cost could drop as low as (what's your guess) kw/h?
                      We hunt the hunters

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

                        Predictions are that solar cost could drop as low as (what's your guess) kw/h?
                        In recent years, I've noticed that a good number of new houses being built in my area have solar panels included as part of the initial build. My guess is in some cases at least, these might be part of a "package deal" (effectively at a lower price than if folks had the panels added later). If the cost of solar panels drops substantially, I could foresee this becoming much more common; perhaps even standard practice, in some localities.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

                          Predictions are that solar cost could drop as low as (what's your guess) kw/h?
                          My guess is that if the panels were free you'd still lose money over natural gas or nuclear. That's how poor solar does commercially. Even home systems are that bad economically. Better to spend less cash for more effect on insulation and making your house as air-tight as possible.
                          For example, go buy a few tubes of urethane caulk (silicon will work too) and do every electrical outlet (switch and receptacle along with any ceiling light octagon boxes), so that there is no gap around the outside of them to the drywall. You can further put a dash of foam spray insulation on each Romex cable entry to the box. That air seals these to prevent cold or hot air from entering the house.
                          Make sure all doors and windows have good tight seals with no air gaps.

                          Another good one in warmer climates is to add foil backing to the roof sheathing, and even the walls if you are doing new construction.



                          This alone on roof sheathing / underlay will drop the temperature in the attic 10 to 30 degrees and make a major dent in your electric / air conditioning bill.

                          I've done all that, and a bit more, on my house. With a pool and a 4 ton AC (14 seer) unit my monthly electric bill (all electric house) is about $175 for a 2200 sq ft home. The electrical utility has come out twice trying to see if solar would benefit me, and even their generous calculations show I'd lose on the deal.

                          All that upgrading cost less than $1000. I also did double pane windows (paying only for the windows which I did the install on).
                          Bottom line-- Solar is an expensive bust until you have exhausted all the cheap fixes to lower your energy costs, and even then is likely to be a major fail.

                          Comment


                          • All the money that went to solar and wind should have gone to developing thorium molten salt reactors in my opinion. That doesn't mean solar and storage do not have a place for residential. The goal should be for people to use more energy not less and solar and storage has a place. The real savings from solar have to do with distribution costs. That is why forcing utilities to buy solar from homeowners is so backwards. Solar to offset the demand from electric cars makes sense in some areas. Solar could also replace the need for backup generators. The cost just needs to get down to $0.10 per kw/h.

                            The influence of Marx on the left's thinking is truly unfortunate. Marx's rather unsophisticated collectivist views lead to a preference for conservation, mass transit, and inefficient renewables instead of higher tech. The environmental movement in particular is polluted with a misanthropic and dystopian ideology. It is a result of the collectivist rejection of individual sovereignty and values and replacing those with a superficial identity of class. I, ROBOT cars for example is the future if individual freedom is not hijacked by brains damaged by our socialist orientated universities where mass identities are promoted along with mass transit.
                            We hunt the hunters

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                            • Dan Britt - Orbits and Ice Ages: The History of Climate

                              https://youtu.be/Yze1YAz_LYM

                              Yeah, redo, again ...

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                              • Alaska bakes under heat wave linked to climate change


                                Blind man!
                                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                                youre entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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