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  • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

    The gimme gimme generation is yours. That generation will die before the mess has to be dealt with. That mess needs to be dealt with be my generation and our offspring.

    Greta may have Aspergers. It does not mean the message is wrong.

    In fact, when the messenger, rather than the message is attacked, the message can usually be considered reliable.
    No, not mine. I belong to the Lost Generation, those of us born to the Great Generation during the war.
    The Boomers did not began until 1946, after the war, but they did not raise these idiots either. Their grandchildren raised this batch of losers. Do the generational math.

    And if the message can be considered reliable any time someone protests it, then all the garbage put out by all of the politicians throughout history is, in fact, absolute truth, according to your premise, including the messages of the most vile leaders in history.

    You have also just validated everything ever said by self-proclaimed "experts" like Gore and that racist, Obama.

    Climate change may be true, but the constant message that we are at fault and we can control planetary climate is totally false. And a teenager with Aspergers is not the Messenger of Universal Truth.
    Last edited by Mountain Man; 28 Dec 19, 10:15.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DingBat View Post

      You realize that contrails ARE anthropogenic CO2, right?
      Wrong. Contrails are clear water vapor in the atmosphere converted to steam by the jet engine that then crystalizes into clouds. Cloud cover is a much better form of heat trap as well as changing the albedo of the planet.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

      By all means, let's mitigate contrails. But given the contribution of contrails, we probably cannot afford to spend several years just focusing on it alone.
      Good. You're on your way to being a skeptic about anthropogenic CO2 being the sole cause.

      Abandoning coal is another good start. But while natural gas emits about 50% the CO2 that coal does, it's production emits a LOT more methane. Natural gas is, at best, an intermediate step, and a short lived one at that. Nuclear, though. Hell, yes. Especially new, modern molten salt or travelling wave reactors.
      Natural gas consists primarily of methane. That's what it is. When burned, it produces CO, CO2, NO, etc. But, it burns much more completely and cleanly than coal meaning there's less of those things produced. It also doesn't leave ash behind like coal. Fly ash is a major pollutant too, although it does have some uses in making cement and CMU's.

      And I'm all for a hydrogen cell based transportation system. But at the risk of seeming difficult, hydrogen cells have their own challenges and, at least to me, don't seem to have that many advantages over battery ev's. I would be interested in an explanation of how ev's using batteries is a Left thing. Basically, I don't see battery powered ev's as "idiocy", especially given the rate of recent progress. Ideally, research continues in both avenues and we have a choice in the near future.


      That's a Honda Clarity. It runs on hydrogen and uses a fuel cell. You can buy one in California right now.



      That's a hydrogen fuel pump. You fill your fuel cell car like you would with gasoline. It takes just a little longer to do it though. The pumps can be added to existing gasoline stations meaning the infrastructure shift is minimal, unlike the stupidity of battery cars where you in effect need a charging station for each one at multiple places since it generally takes several hours to recharge one.



      This is the idiocy you get with battery cars.


      We seem to have some common ground, at least. There is definitely room for argument regarding HOW we deal with climate change. But let's stop with the Left/Right bullshit. There are at least as many loonies denying its even happening as their are pushing for climate action as radical social change. And they're a diminishing percentage on each side. Let's just cut the crap.
      Yes, we do. Hopefully you'll join the side of common sense and be a skeptic about what the Left is calling for and the narrative that CO2 alone is the problem and solar, wind, and batteries are the answer, because they're not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        No, not mine. I belong to the Lost Generation, those of us born to the Great Generation during the war.
        The Boomers did not began until 1946, after the war, but they did not raise these idiots either. Their grandchildren raised this batch of losers. Do the generational math.

        And if the message can be considered reliable any time someone protests it, then all the garbage put out by all of the politicians throughout history is, in fact, absolute truth, according to your premise, including the messages of the most vile leaders in history.

        You have also just validated everything ever said by self-proclaimed "experts" like Gore and that racist, Obama.

        Climate change may be true, but the constant message that we are at fault and we can control planetary climate is totally false. And a teenager with Aspergers is not the Messenger of Universal Truth.
        Are you the Lost Generation or the Great generation? Can't be both.

        Also, a generation is considered about 25 years. If a baby boomer earliest period is 1946, then we are talking 1996 for their grandchildren to raise these 'batch of losers' as you call them. The oldest 'batch of losers' is around 23 according to your logic. I've done the generational maths, and you've failed.

        Obama is a failure on many accounts, that much we can agree on.

        'A teenager with Aspergers is not the messenger of Universal Truth' may be correct almost all the time. However, she has to live in a world where Old people only care about me first, and not their children, or their children's children.
        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
          " ... Baby boomers have a lot to answer for."
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGDA0Hecw1k


          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
            But the young are not blaming the one before, its 2 before
            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

            Comment


            • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

              He was exaggerating, like he does just about every day. The guy speaks in hyperbole and brags like no one else on a world stage.
              Awesome. Just what we all need. A man in charge of our future that speaks **** as a matter of form.
              Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

              That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                'A teenager with Aspergers is not the messenger of Universal Truth' may be correct almost all the time. However, she has to live in a world where Old people only care about me first, and not their children, or their children's children.
                A *****'s parrot can say the sky is blue, and does it make it less blue because a *****'s parrot said it? But anyway, not sure why you are trying. None of these people care. Its a boomer given. Take take take then blame others or say its all a lie when there is nothing left to take. Then die and leave the world to those that are made to give more than they should have to give (and no - not me - my kids) On the bright side we get to stick them all in substandard nursing homes soon, and ignore them until the inheritance comes in.
                Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                  But the young are not blaming the one before, its 2 before
                  Not always, it seems to me. Regardless, realistically it should easily be at least both; or even more (depending on how we define "the young" and "generation"). Point is, if we are to be fair, it's not truthfully down entirely to any specific "generation". The only thing we can say with complete certainty is that it's NOT down to today's "young"; that is, those who have either not yet had the opportunity to participate in society as adults; or have only had a relatively short time in the adult workforce & society. Difficult to draw a definitive line but my take is that those of us on the senior side of 40 should - to varying degrees - be considered potentially "responsible" even if only in a small way for many. That encompasses no less than two generations; probably three.

                  This is all just my opinion, of course; and probably would not fully align with Ms Thunberg's thoughts.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rojik View Post

                    Awesome. Just what we all need. A man in charge of our future that speaks **** as a matter of form.
                    I want what works. What works best are things that don't raise costs and provide good service. That's how a market should work. The market usually works best when left to decide mostly or entirely on its own the best course, instead of having government choose.

                    Right now, solar, wind, and battery cars are all heavily subsidized by governments. Note the 's' on that. Government around the world is choosing our future rather than the market. In every country where wind and solar have become major players in the energy market prices for electricity have risen dramatically.

                    In Germany a KWH is over triple the cost it is in the US. In Spain, Italy, Australia, Denmark-- all heavily invested in solar and wind-- the cost of electricity is more than double that in countries that aren't heavily invested. Battery cars would never have come to the market at all without heavy government subsidy. Home solar is only popular because the government is giving it away using taxpayer money.

                    Those aren't me speaking about what should be, but rather what is. Solar and wind don't work and there's ample proof of that worldwide now. Yet, government keeps pushing it. Maybe you should start to wonder why they want what doesn't work.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                      I want what works. What works best are things that don't raise costs and provide good service. That's how a market should work. The market usually works best when left to decide mostly or entirely on its own the best course, instead of having government choose.

                      Right now, solar, wind, and battery cars are all heavily subsidized by governments. Note the 's' on that. Government around the world is choosing our future rather than the market. In every country where wind and solar have become major players in the energy market prices for electricity have risen dramatically.

                      In Germany a KWH is over triple the cost it is in the US. In Spain, Italy, Australia, Denmark-- all heavily invested in solar and wind-- the cost of electricity is more than double that in countries that aren't heavily invested. Battery cars would never have come to the market at all without heavy government subsidy. Home solar is only popular because the government is giving it away using taxpayer money.

                      Those aren't me speaking about what should be, but rather what is. Solar and wind don't work and there's ample proof of that worldwide now. Yet, government keeps pushing it. Maybe you should start to wonder why they want what doesn't work.
                      But it isn't working. Last year was the most brutal summer on record here. And here we are this year only a month in and we have gone and smashed records again. it was 43C here yesterday, and will be the same today. That isn't December weather... one or two days... sure... but Ive lost count of the days we have had so far, and we haven't even hit the tough days of January. Half of the place is on fire and the other half is in drought. Do you really think anyone here would care if about a couple of extra bucks on the power bill if we could have averted that? But it doesn't matter. The genie is out of the bottle and we'll be in the ground before the worst hits. It is far too late to do anything substantial about it... Everyone in power has the same attitude as you and only wants what is best for them short term blindly ignorant of the fact that we only have one planet and once we have screwed it up it will wipe us out, heal up and go on just as it is... but without us.
                      Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                      That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                        I want what works. What works best are things that don't raise costs and provide good service. That's how a market should work. The market usually works best when left to decide mostly or entirely on its own the best course, instead of having government choose.
                        Except when the market drivers have decided to delay, sow doubt, obfuscate, and deny. Say, like tobacco, acid rain, ozone depletion. I like free market economy just fine, but saying that it ALWAYS works, or that government intervention is NEVER needed is just ignoring history.


                        Right now, solar, wind, and battery cars are all heavily subsidized by governments. Note the 's' on that. Government around the world is choosing our future rather than the market. In every country where wind and solar have become major players in the energy market prices for electricity have risen dramatically.
                        I would suggest you haven't been keeping up with current advances:

                        Cost of Electricity by Source
                        Renewable Energy Will Be Consistently Cheaper Than Fossil Fuels By 2020, Report Claims
                        The path to US$0.015/kWh solar power, and lower
                        India shifting away from coal - Why? Solar electricity at $0.03 per kwh
                        Business Insiders take on it
                        Plunging Prices Mean Building New Renewable Energy Is Cheaper Than Running Existing Coal
                        Renewable Energy Costs Take Another Tumble, Making Fossil Fuels Look More Expensive Than Ever
                        Utility solar prices will continue to drop all over the world even without subsidies


                        Edit: I should also mention that oil production in Canada is also MASSIVELY subsidized. To the tune of > $3 billion/year.
                        Last edited by DingBat; 29 Dec 19, 12:32.

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                        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                          I want what works. What works best are things that don't raise costs and provide good service. That's how a market should work. The market usually works best when left to decide mostly or entirely on its own the best course, instead of having government choose.

                          Right now, solar, wind, and battery cars are all heavily subsidized by governments. Note the 's' on that. Government around the world is choosing our future rather than the market. In every country where wind and solar have become major players in the energy market prices for electricity have risen dramatically.

                          In Germany a KWH is over triple the cost it is in the US. In Spain, Italy, Australia, Denmark-- all heavily invested in solar and wind-- the cost of electricity is more than double that in countries that aren't heavily invested. Battery cars would never have come to the market at all without heavy government subsidy. Home solar is only popular because the government is giving it away using taxpayer money.

                          Those aren't me speaking about what should be, but rather what is. Solar and wind don't work and there's ample proof of that worldwide now. Yet, government keeps pushing it. Maybe you should start to wonder why they want what doesn't work.
                          It’s like those predictions in articles in old copies of popular mechanics that had people in 2000 driving flying cars and robots will take over all workers jobs and other spectacular inventions and they didn’t come true either
                          The technology may come one day that makes it more economically viable to use renewable sources of energy that are reliable but it’s not going to happen in the timetable governments have set so far
                          Last edited by Snowshoveler; 29 Dec 19, 12:39.

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                          • 43FDF3C6-D3E7-4D1E-8572-B329306AE7B6.jpeg

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                            • Originally posted by DingBat View Post

                              Except when the market drivers have decided to delay, sow doubt, obfuscate, and deny. Say, like tobacco, acid rain, ozone depletion. I like free market economy just fine, but saying that it ALWAYS works, or that government intervention is NEVER needed is just ignoring history.
                              I didn't say government was never needed, but rather that government should follow not lead, and that it's interaction in the market be limited to referee rather than boss.

                              In energy, if left alone, energy companies would be phasing out coal and replacing it with cheaper natural gas. Side benefit, cleaner air. But, government is forcing solar and wind instead, and driving up costs.

                              https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...the-world.html

                              https://www.electricchoice.com/elect...ices-by-state/

                              Your first source talks about the capitalization costs of electricity by source. This is a canard when it comes to cost per KWH.

                              Let me give you an actual example:

                              Ivanpah solar in California is the US's largest solar plant currently. It has a nameplate capacity of 400 MW. It covers 4000 acres and cost $2.5 billion to build (in 2016 dollars). It has a capacity factor of 24.1%.

                              Palo Verde Nuclear in Arizona is the US's last and largest nuclear plant to be constructed. It has a nameplate capacity of 4000 MW, covers 4000 acres and cost (2016 dollars) 11.5 billion to construct. It has a capacity factor of 94%.

                              Ivanpah's annual output is about 940 GW/ year. Palo Verde's annual output is about 32,300 GW / year.

                              This means that Palo Verde produces about 34 times more electricity on about 5 times the investment cost on the same footprint of land.

                              or---

                              Solana solar in Gila Bend Arizona (Arizona's largest solar plant) has a nameplate capacity of 280 MW. It has 6 hours of storage capacity on site. Capacity factor is 26.6%. Annual output is 724 GW. It cost $2 billion to construct.

                              Coolidge Natural Gas plant has a name plate of 575 MW. It has a capacity factor of 95% but is normally run as a peaking plant. It's annual output if run full time would be 3600 GW. It cost $500 million to build.

                              This means that in terms of cost alone, Coolidge NG can use about $75 million in natural gas a year for 20 years before it matches the cost of the Solana plant.

                              Also, the Solana plant shows another dire weakness of large solar arrays. In 2016 a microburst (very intense thunderstorm with pounding rain, hail, and high winds) hit the plant taking it down for 30 days. Almost half the array was damaged and about a quarter destroyed.
                              Solana has also been fined $1.5 million by the Arizona Department of Environmental Quality for violations, the largest fine in state history. So, solar isn't pollution free.

                              What I'm saying is the cost of installing solar doesn't tell you the true cost of solar. Solar's efficiency is so abysmally low that it can't make up for it in production. Rule of thumb is you need 5 KW of installed capacity to produce 1 KW day of power and require more than 50% storage capacity for that on top of the 5 KW.

                              This is because solar doesn't produce power when the sun isn't shining. Solar also takes up a huge footprint of land and is causing it's own environmental problems. Very large solar arrays-- and mass use of local solar like rooftop installations-- have been found to cause climate and weather changes.

                              https://weather.com/science/environm...e-change-study

                              https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...38092X17300245

                              https://www.nature.com/articles/srep35070

                              So, when solar is producing that 20 to 25% of the time that it can, sure it's very cheap electricity. It's the other 75 to 80% of the time that solar becomes grossly expensive. And, when you try to make solar such that it can supply that other 75 to 80% of the time it too becomes grossly expensive. You start by having to install anywhere from 5 to 7 times the capacity you need to produce power during the short period each day solar works well. Then you add a massive storage capacity system of batteries, flywheels, pumped hydro, or whatever. Then add in the need for a "smart" grid to move power around because of the unpredictability of weather.

                              It isn't the installed cost or the cost when it works right that makes solar a loser. It's that it rarely works right and the installed cost is a canard when you factor in storage and over capacity to make a KW day of power.

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                              • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                                I didn't say government was never needed, but rather that government should follow not lead, and that it's interaction in the market be limited to referee rather than boss.

                                In energy, if left alone, energy companies would be phasing out coal and replacing it with cheaper natural gas. Side benefit, cleaner air. But, government is forcing solar and wind instead, and driving up costs.
                                Since you seemed to have missed it the first time, this link demonstrates that what you are saying is out of date.
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_o...city_by_source
                                Last edited by DingBat; 29 Dec 19, 13:55.

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