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  • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

    Worthless at the moment, but the tech on solar energy and batteries will get there. Further, infertile deserts make excellent locations for solar power.
    Actually, this is the pie in the sky environmental version. Solar energy and batteries will never be efficient. You can't get around the basic chemistry and physics of how they work. To generate one Kilowatt Day (KWD) of power from solar you need about 5 KW of installed solar panels. You can look at any solar generating plant and see this. They all have a capacity factor of 20 to 25%. Solana, the largest commercial solar plant in Arizona (at Gila Bend in the Sonoran Desert) is 26.6% rated, which is about the best you can do in a desert in the US. Ivanpah, the largest solar plant in the US (Mojave desert California) is 20.5% rated.
    The other thing engineers are finding out is that very large solar arrays disrupt local weather patterns. This contributes to climate change.

    https://weather.com/science/environm...e-change-study

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ange-a-little/

    Batteries, pumped hydro, flywheels, and other storage systems for solar are a costly add on that decreases the overall efficiency of the system and raises the cost per KWH. Battery storage is inefficient at best. You can never get more than about 2 VDC per cell out of a battery. The laws of chemistry and a look at a periodic table confirm that. Pumped hydro or flywheels consume power to make them work meaning you need more power to store power.
    Worse, you need about 4 KW of installed capacity to get to 1 KWD of power. Most plants that have such storage can only supply power for a few hours after the solar panels stop generating. So, you are left needing conventional generation means on top of the solar, making for redundant capacity that mostly sits unused and not making money but costing money.

    The weather thing is a big problem, and in a desert it along with other issues makes solar undesirable. Large arrays in a hot desert will form a column of hot, rising air above them. This pulls in air from the surrounding area creating a cyclonic wind effect and disrupts natural wind patterns. Both Solana and Ivanpah have this issue.
    Solar in general, even smaller numerous arrays in residential and commercial areas contribute to urban heat island effect and increase ozone pollution as a result.
    Also, solar plants require considerable water resources to clean the panels, etc. This depletes groundwater as the only source is usually from a well or wells set up to supply it to the array.

    Basically, solar is a pathetic loser of a way to make electricity. Even if the array were free, it's so inefficient that it costs more than generation by more conventional means.


    I am a current fan of nuclear power, and believe we will eventually be able to harness the energy in the radioactive waste, so I am not a leftie Green.
    Nuclear is the best solution. The radioactive "waste" can be managed safely. Natural gas is the bridge from coal to nuclear as it is much cleaner to use. It also represents the best supplement to nuclear at the moment for peaking load plants. Solar is utterly stupid.

    We do need to do something quickly, but I now feel its probably too late, and our descendants will suffer from our selfish stupidity.
    That selfish stupidity is battery cars, solar and wind, and other "solutions" coming from idiots on the Progressive Left like Al Gore and the like.

    Comment


    • Actually batteries have change a lot please see
      https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/d...tion-1.4945615
      things are changing very quickly , a lot of the old arguments no longer count .

      Comment


      • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

        Actually, this is the pie in the sky environmental version. Solar energy and batteries will never be efficient. You can't get around the basic chemistry and physics of how they work. To generate one Kilowatt Day (KWD) of power from solar you need about 5 KW of installed solar panels. You can look at any solar generating plant and see this. They all have a capacity factor of 20 to 25%. Solana, the largest commercial solar plant in Arizona (at Gila Bend in the Sonoran Desert) is 26.6% rated, which is about the best you can do in a desert in the US. Ivanpah, the largest solar plant in the US (Mojave desert California) is 20.5% rated.
        The other thing engineers are finding out is that very large solar arrays disrupt local weather patterns. This contributes to climate change.

        https://weather.com/science/environm...e-change-study

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ange-a-little/

        Batteries, pumped hydro, flywheels, and other storage systems for solar are a costly add on that decreases the overall efficiency of the system and raises the cost per KWH. Battery storage is inefficient at best. You can never get more than about 2 VDC per cell out of a battery. The laws of chemistry and a look at a periodic table confirm that. Pumped hydro or flywheels consume power to make them work meaning you need more power to store power.
        Worse, you need about 4 KW of installed capacity to get to 1 KWD of power. Most plants that have such storage can only supply power for a few hours after the solar panels stop generating. So, you are left needing conventional generation means on top of the solar, making for redundant capacity that mostly sits unused and not making money but costing money.

        The weather thing is a big problem, and in a desert it along with other issues makes solar undesirable. Large arrays in a hot desert will form a column of hot, rising air above them. This pulls in air from the surrounding area creating a cyclonic wind effect and disrupts natural wind patterns. Both Solana and Ivanpah have this issue.
        Solar in general, even smaller numerous arrays in residential and commercial areas contribute to urban heat island effect and increase ozone pollution as a result.
        Also, solar plants require considerable water resources to clean the panels, etc. This depletes groundwater as the only source is usually from a well or wells set up to supply it to the array.

        Basically, solar is a pathetic loser of a way to make electricity. Even if the array were free, it's so inefficient that it costs more than generation by more conventional means.
        Technology will prove you wrong .
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        Nuclear is the best solution. The radioactive "waste" can be managed safely. Natural gas is the bridge from coal to nuclear as it is much cleaner to use. It also represents the best supplement to nuclear at the moment for peaking load plants. Solar is utterly stupid.
        Nuclear is probably the best current solution imho. I agree with you here.

        However, Solar may take us to the stars.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        That selfish stupidity is battery cars, solar and wind, and other "solutions" coming from idiots on the Progressive Left like Al Gore and the like.
        Ignore the politics. Current fashionable solutions have not got us into this serious mess.

        The problem is Pollution, and not just gases. We use Oceans as both a major food source and our latrine as an example.
        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

        Comment


        • for all of those that think that climate change is not caused by humans . what if you are wrong and do nothing about it.GENEVA (Reuters) - Global temperatures are on course for a 3-5 degrees Celsius (5.4-9.0 degrees Fahrenheit) rise this century, far overshooting a global target of limiting the increase to 2C (3.6F) or less, the U.N. World Meteorological Organization said on Thursdayhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKCN1NY186
          https://www.unenvironment.org/resour...ap-report-2019

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
            Technology will prove you wrong .

            Nuclear is probably the best current solution imho. I agree with you here.

            However, Solar may take us to the stars.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_sail
            Actually, science has pretty much proved me right. You can't get around the watt-density of sunlight or planetary rotation. Sure, in space solar works way better, but that doesn't help us peons on the planet any. Solar is simply an idiotic solution to a problem that might not even need a solution.

            Ignore the politics. Current fashionable solutions have not got us into this serious mess.

            The problem is Pollution, and not just gases. We use Oceans as both a major food source and our latrine as an example.
            I try to. The problem is that the fashionable solutions are worse than the problem.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

              Actually, science has pretty much proved me right. You can't get around the watt-density of sunlight or planetary rotation. Sure, in space solar works way better, but that doesn't help us peons on the planet any. Solar is simply an idiotic solution to a problem that might not even need a solution.
              While Solar is not a solution in its own right, it's certainly a step in the right direction, and a reasonable source to 'top up' energy as required.
              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
              I try to. The problem is that the fashionable solutions are worse than the problem.
              We don't know that yet.

              What we do know is that we need to change our reliance on fossil fuel. Tesla's approach (scientist, not car company) is probably the correct solution.

              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SRV Ron View Post

                Just how many people will willingly give up their lifestyle and freedom for a life of slavery in The Collective just for the sake of stopping Climate Change? True, there are many alternatives. Some are good, such as industry working to operate more efficiently and control pollution. Others worthless such as relying on solar power to charge the batteries of the electric cars when one considers how environmentally damaging it is to manufacture the batteries and solar panels, not to mention turning acres of cropland or meadows into solar farms. But, that's not what the Far Left Environmentalist want. They want drastic changes NOW. No cows, no aircraft, no power generation using coal, oil, gas, hydropower, or nuclear and the retrofitting of all inhabited structures to sustainable use according to Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who is running for President. Therefore, according to them, a Scorched Earth or Communism is the only solution for curing Global Warming, Climate Change, whatever it is being called according to if it is getting warmer, or cooler.

                https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...green-new-deal
                How can we trust anything you say when you say and i quote Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who is running for President.. she is not and has never been so
                Bennet
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                Comment


                • Seems the Nazis were fans of wind farms before they became fashionable...

                  http://en.friends-against-wind.org/r...terally-hitler

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Seems the Nazis were fans of wind farms before they became fashionable...

                    http://en.friends-against-wind.org/r...terally-hitler
                    Well that totally invalidates wind farms........

                    Comment


                    • Someone letting out the motivations behind the green agenda it’s all about the power that they can force on people being frightened to death by their propaganda

                      E7B0F5DC-E3E7-493A-A64B-82BFE761F5F7.jpeg

                      Comment


                      • CA848A42-138C-4475-955C-40772BB3F850.jpeg More details

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Snowshoveler View Post
                          Someone letting out the motivations behind the green agenda it’s all about the power that they can force on people being frightened to death by their propaganda

                          E7B0F5DC-E3E7-493A-A64B-82BFE761F5F7.jpeg

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bill shack View Post
                            for all of those that think that climate change is not caused by humans . what if you are wrong and do nothing about it.GENEVA (Reuters) - Global temperatures are on course for a 3-5 degrees Celsius (5.4-9.0 degrees Fahrenheit) rise this century, far overshooting a global target of limiting the increase to 2C (3.6F) or less, the U.N. World Meteorological Organization said on Thursdayhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKCN1NY186
                            https://www.unenvironment.org/resour...ap-report-2019

                            Global temperature is concerning but polluted air quality should be top priority.



                            Los Angeles smog
                            "Never argue with an idiot. They'll just drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience" George Carlin

                            Comment


                            • Trump said the US has the cleanest water and the cleanest air. He's delusional and not quite right in the head. Add to that he doesn't listen to common sense or good advice, and he doesn't read. He defines the term 'ignorant.'
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                                Trump said the US has the cleanest water and the cleanest air. He's delusional and not quite right in the head. Add to that he doesn't listen to common sense or good advice, and he doesn't read. He defines the term 'ignorant.'
                                Given the diversity in climate, and degree to which the US is industrialized, Trump is more right than wrong on this. Given his tendency to use hyperbole and superlatives in his speech, I'd say that you are delusional for not accepting that he's being a bit over-the-top as the US on the whole is doing pretty good in controlling pollution.

                                Comment

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