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  • So here's another example of the mental and terminology sloppiness of the pro-ACC/AGW agenda; How To Talk To Kids About Climate Change

    ...
    A few months ago, I was standing at the sink in the kitchen. Suddenly my daughter, who's seven, said, "You're lucky you got to have your adulthood before the planet was completely destroyed by climate change."
    ...
    https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/77226...=pocket-newtab

    To start with, see that part highlighted in red.
    "the planet"(Earth) is about 99.9+% rock, from the surface of the Crust/Tectonic Plates on down to the molten core so "the planet" will not be destroyed by any human activity of current or near future.

    The hydrosphere, and the biosphere it makes possible, might be affected, but the past millions to billions of years of geological history show warm and cold periods beyond anything it would seem we humans go do, short of something like a full scale nuclear weapon exchange/holocaust.

    If anything, history of the past 1-2 million years show more like a 4 out of 5 chance of cooling into another Ice Age than any hydrosphere excess heating. FWIW, when you have an Ice Age that covers much of the upper land latitudes in ice that could be as much as a mile thick, there has been quite a bit of evaporation of the oceans to produce the rain/snow fall that needs to accumulate to make those huge sheets of ice.

    Point being there may be a lot more on how climate works and what affects it for us to be considering any more than the "accidental" small scale geo-engineering we've done so far. And the "crisis" could be extreme cooling rather than warming.
    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
    “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

    Comment


    • I guess younger children especially, who trust any adult (such as a teacher) will generally tend to accept what they say.
      That said, if this is what kids are hearing at school then it should be no surprise that young people in large numbers are enthusiastically participating in public demonstrations re climate change.
      Not saying it's wrong to demonstrate, of course. But it's easy to understand why they do so with such strong conviction.

      ... and folks in older age groups, such as my own, are being held to account.
      We may or may not feel that this is appropriate or correct but it is understandable at least.
      "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
      Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        I guess younger children especially, who trust any adult (such as a teacher) will generally tend to accept what they say.
        That said, if this is what kids are hearing at school then it should be no surprise that young people in large numbers are enthusiastically participating in public demonstrations re climate change.
        Not saying it's wrong to demonstrate, of course. But it's easy to understand why they do so with such strong conviction.

        ... and folks in older age groups, such as my own, are being held to account.
        We may or may not feel that this is appropriate or correct but it is understandable at least.
        Good point. I'm wondering if its time to split the environment into a couple of different streams- arctic/Antarctic, species at risk, etc..
        thnks Panther!
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

        Comment


        • Speaking of Orcas as was mentioned some posts back;

          The Predator That Makes Great White Sharks Flee in Fear
          Better to run than to have your liver squeezed out.

          https://getpocket.com/explore/item/t...=pocket-newtab
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
          “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

          Comment


          • The debate over anthropogenic global warming has been a source of considerable stress for me. Over the past 30 years it has sparked arguments with family members and coworkers. The significant increase in atmospheric co2, which is a gas more necessary than oxygen to support life on the planet, deserves careful study. Some family and coworkers are deniers in the sense that they deny that human source co2 could have any significant effect others are alarmist that expect rising co2 to destroy the planet. Because of the political implications both sides demand complete surrender to their position. Despite the more modest claims on the effect of rising co2 by even activist scientists people still demand complete agreement with their radical interpretation. Science discussion forums are now issuing automatic bans for questioning the smallest detail of the "consensus". Because of the left wing nexus behind AGW research and activism conservative forums while they will not out right ban you for supporting any aspect of the "consensus" doing so marks you as a traitor.

            This all or nothing approach to the topic is not only an affront to scientific enquiry it also eliminates any possibility of political compromise or reasonable discussion.

            Over these 30 years my position has never changed. First the research must shift away from demonizing co2 to establishing a baseline or background temperature independent of human source co2. That is the scientific standard for every other topic. Second a cost benefit analysis must be fairly implemented that favors human needs over biodiversity. This second point is anathema to the prevailing popular culture of environmentalism. I would argue however that because the popular culture is urban in origin and temperament it has no practical experience with nature. Point three stems directly from the dystopian nature of this urban culture. My third unchanging position is that cooling is not only a greater threat to billions of humans it has a more damaging effect on diversity than warming. It's no accident that the greatest biodiversity is found in the tropics not on ice sheets. Warming and increased co2 under Occam's Razor as it were.

            ​​​​​​Most people do not thrive under conditions of uncertainty but for people like me it makes life interesting. The stress is a result of people demanding certainty. One of my mottos is there are no nontrivial truths. This attitude is apparently an affront to the secular religion of environmentalism and to those of more traditional beliefs. I remain troubled by certainty and it's dangers.

            For anyone that thinks deniers are conspiracy theorist I ask them to do their own research into two other areas of settled science in popular culture. The story of DDT and Asbestos. Both have served as iconic symbols of environmental awareness. Both however have elements of deeply flawed public understanding.





            We hunt the hunters

            Comment


            • My view on anthropogenic CO2 is that it is currently myopic. That is, those pushing Gorebal Warming shrug off any alternatives, aren't even really looking for any, and are disinterested in any that might appear like jet engine contrails. For them, they have put almost religious faith in human generated CO2 as the cause, and more government and Socialism as the solution.

              That many, if not most, of the same group demonizes the obvious solution to the problem they say exists: Nuclear power. I will say the propaganda they've produced demonizing nuclear power has been extremely effective. But, it also eliminates the one practical solution to the problem they say exists. Solar and wind simply are not going to work.

              Thus, the politics of Gorebal Warming have become a road to ruin for society, and will create much the same problem eliminating DDT did. If you recall, much of the "science" that got it banned has been found to be faulty to outright false while tens, if not hundreds of millions of people have suffered and died from mosquito born illness due to the ban and lack of an alternative.

              The current culture of environmentalism is one of "zero tolerance" and "do more / do something." George Carlin had it right...

              Comment


              • So if current climate change, whether warming or cooling, is more anthropogenic(human caused) than the expression of billions of years of the Natural cycle ...

                AND if it is driven mostly to entirely by the one part of CO2(Carbon Dioxide) transferring heat to the other 2,499 parts of other chemical molecules in the atmosphere: Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, etc.

                THEN: if the "solution" is to reduce CO2 emissions, we should expect that the true-believers in the hypothesis of CO2 driven ACC/AGW will do the noble thing, sacrifice themselves for the better well being of their fellow humans and "the planet" by ceasing to exhale any more CO2/Carbon Dioxide. Were ALL "true believers" in ACC/AGW to do this noble act and live out their beliefs, we'd find that the "crisis" of "climate change" has ended.


                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

                Comment


                • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                  So if current climate change, whether warming or cooling, is more anthropogenic(human caused) than the expression of billions of years of the Natural cycle ...

                  AND if it is driven mostly to entirely by the one part of CO2(Carbon Dioxide) transferring heat to the other 2,499 parts of other chemical molecules in the atmosphere: Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, etc.

                  THEN: if the "solution" is to reduce CO2 emissions, we should expect that the true-believers in the hypothesis of CO2 driven ACC/AGW will do the noble thing, sacrifice themselves for the better well being of their fellow humans and "the planet" by ceasing to exhale any more CO2/Carbon Dioxide. Were ALL "true believers" in ACC/AGW to do this noble act and live out their beliefs, we'd find that the "crisis" of "climate change" has ended.


                  That is the thing isn't it. It's all about how you frame it. Agriculture despite how little cultural awareness there is of it's nature and scope is the most significant human activity in reducing biodiversity. If not by outright extinction as a matter of quantity of different species occupying a given space. Perhaps it's most insidious effect goes unnoticed at the microbial level. Fossil fuel derived fertilizers, on which we are now nearly totally dependent, destroy microbial diversity. With lower human population levels many natural habitats could be restored.
                  We hunt the hunters

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                    THEN: if the "solution" is to reduce CO2 emissions, we should expect that the true-believers in the hypothesis of CO2 driven ACC/AGW will do the noble thing, sacrifice themselves for the better well being of their fellow humans and "the planet" by ceasing to exhale any more CO2/Carbon Dioxide. Were ALL "true believers" in ACC/AGW to do this noble act and live out their beliefs, we'd find that the "crisis" of "climate change" has ended.


                    The rambling musings of a bone spur patriot.....



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jutland View Post

                      The rambling musings of a bone spur patriot.....


                      Typical response of a double standard hypocrite ...
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                      “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

                      Comment


                      • The add on this page associates Roundup with cancer. I'm sceptical that anyone harmed by roundup followed the manufactures recommendations.
                        We hunt the hunters

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                          Typical response of a double standard hypocrite ...
                          And how exactly am I a hypocrite?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                            The add on this page associates Roundup with cancer. I'm sceptical that anyone harmed by roundup followed the manufactures recommendations.
                            In the California case, it's pretty damn clear that the guy that won the lawsuit didn't follow the MSDS one iota and that is what resulted in his cancer.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              My view on anthropogenic CO2 is that it is currently myopic. That is, those pushing Gorebal Warming shrug off any alternatives, aren't even really looking for any, and are disinterested in any that might appear like jet engine contrails. For them, they have put almost religious faith in human generated CO2 as the cause, and more government and Socialism as the solution.

                              That many, if not most, of the same group demonizes the obvious solution to the problem they say exists: Nuclear power. I will say the propaganda they've produced demonizing nuclear power has been extremely effective. But, it also eliminates the one practical solution to the problem they say exists. Solar and wind simply are not going to work.

                              Thus, the politics of Gorebal Warming have become a road to ruin for society, and will create much the same problem eliminating DDT did. If you recall, much of the "science" that got it banned has been found to be faulty to outright false while tens, if not hundreds of millions of people have suffered and died from mosquito born illness due to the ban and lack of an alternative.

                              The current culture of environmentalism is one of "zero tolerance" and "do more / do something." George Carlin had it right...

                              As soon as you use insulting language instead of science, you lose the argument.

                              Further, you really don't understand what George Carling actually meant. His conclusion says it all:
                              What would you do if you were the planet trying to defend against this pesky, troublesome species? Let’s see... what might... hmm... viruses! Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And uh... viruses are tricky; always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps this first virus could be one that-that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along and maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction. Well that’s a poetic note and it’s a start and I can dream can’t I? See, I don’t worry about the little things... bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we’re part of a greater wisdom that we won’t ever understand, a higher order. Call it what you want. You know what I call it? The big electron... the big electron. It doesn’t punish, it doesn’t reward, it doesn’t judge at all. It just is and so are we... for a little while...
                              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                                So here's another example of the mental and terminology sloppiness of the pro-ACC/AGW agenda; How To Talk To Kids About Climate Change

                                ...
                                A few months ago, I was standing at the sink in the kitchen. Suddenly my daughter, who's seven, said, "You're lucky you got to have your adulthood before the planet was completely destroyed by climate change."
                                ...
                                https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/77226...=pocket-newtab

                                To start with, see that part highlighted in red.
                                "the planet"(Earth) is about 99.9+% rock, from the surface of the Crust/Tectonic Plates on down to the molten core so "the planet" will not be destroyed by any human activity of current or near future.

                                The hydrosphere, and the biosphere it makes possible, might be affected, but the past millions to billions of years of geological history show warm and cold periods beyond anything it would seem we humans go do, short of something like a full scale nuclear weapon exchange/holocaust.

                                If anything, history of the past 1-2 million years show more like a 4 out of 5 chance of cooling into another Ice Age than any hydrosphere excess heating. FWIW, when you have an Ice Age that covers much of the upper land latitudes in ice that could be as much as a mile thick, there has been quite a bit of evaporation of the oceans to produce the rain/snow fall that needs to accumulate to make those huge sheets of ice.

                                Point being there may be a lot more on how climate works and what affects it for us to be considering any more than the "accidental" small scale geo-engineering we've done so far. And the "crisis" could be extreme cooling rather than warming.
                                Your daughter is partially right. We're destroying that part of the planet that is keeping us alive.
                                How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                                Comment

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