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  • #46
    From what I've found with some quick searching:
    The Cap-Haitien airport appears to be currently inoperable.

    The Jacmel airport doesn't have runway lights and the road from it to Port-Au-Prince is apparently damaged, According to this AFPS report it will be the second airport to re-open.

    Didn't find much on the other airports. Some appear to be accepting flights but there's not a lot of info. And like with Jacmel there's the question of landing supplies and then being unable to get it to people.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by the_redstar_swl View Post
      From what I've found with some quick searching:
      The Cap-Haitien airport appears to be currently inoperable.

      The Jacmel airport doesn't have runway lights and the road from it to Port-Au-Prince is apparently damaged, According to this AFPS report it will be the second airport to re-open.

      Didn't find much on the other airports. Some appear to be accepting flights but there's not a lot of info. And like with Jacmel there's the question of landing supplies and then being unable to get it to people.
      TKS for info.

      Runway lights are only required for IFR. AF Tac ATC should have lighting sets as part of the TOE.

      From what we read and hear it isn't a problem of getting supplies into the country but getting them to those in need.
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Golani View Post
        http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisr...Help-to-Haiti/

        Got some friends from reserve units already there, may their work be of help
        I saw Geraldo Rivera interview of an Israeli doctor in their Neonatal
        Triage Center. I was very impressed and then when he shared how
        a surgeon from their team donated his own blood to a victim he was
        treating........well....tears did well up for me.
        17thAirborneSon

        "The horizon is unlimited." Major General Matthew Ridgeway

        Comment


        • #49
          Canada's military relief efforts are to be centered on Jacmel. The Disaster Assistance Relief Team (DART) is in the area, HMCS HALIFAX is in the harbour and the Royal 22 Regiment (the "VanDoos") are getting ready to deploy a 1000 troops from Quebec, Canada into the area.

          A sound bite describing the logistical issues at Jacmel:

          "Defence Minister Peter MacKay had earlier said the region faces other logistical challenges. The airport, little more than a runway, is capable of landing a Hercules aircraft but not the larger CC-177 transports, he said.

          The town's port, while not unusable, is still not equipped to handle a ship the size of the two Canadian vessels arriving Monday, meaning supplies and personnel would have to be ferried from the ships to the port, he said."

          http://news.ca.msn.com/world/cbc-art...entid=23279135

          John, at work tomorrow I shall attempt to see if I can find any information on restoral of the airport.
          Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
            When AF tact Air Traffic Controllers go in to an airfield it is hardly make shift. It well be a fully instument airfiled. The ATC portion is most likly more advanced than what was there before the quake. 100 aircraft a day is not a big load for ATC to handle. The unloading seems to be the problem. IF they would only be using military aircraft then athings would move much faster with the palletize system they have for unloading.

            I'm waiting for the mili to open up some tac type airfileds for C 130's and r/w. This should give some relieve to the main airport. 93HJL50
            100 Transport planes a day, however, is probably a huge load for the existing tarmac/runway facilities. That is the main limiting factor, as is the availiblility of transport trucks, secured staging lots, and almost as important as the ATCs themselves, MHE and Drivers for MHE.

            Though with the roads in the condition that they are, they're probably relying on a lot of rotary-wing transport. Which is my specialty. From calculations I made 2 years ago, given 4 CH53s and the suitable equipment, a team of 4 HST-trained personell and 4-8 'cargo-packers' they should be able to fly between 90,000 and 120,000 pounds per hour of supplies from one LZ to a DZ roughly 25 air-minutes away. This is per crew/helo flight, and so long as the helos have fuel and don't have to stop for maintenance. That's only good for CH47s and 53s, however, CH46s would only be running about 20,000-25,000 pph. V22s would be running at ~75,000 pph, but they can also run twice as far in 25 minutes.

            The 25 minutes single-leg gives 5 minutes on each end for approach, dropping the load, departure, and picking up the load. There is no ground time given. The V-22 gets a speed advantage only when it is carrying its payload internally.
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
              Why should Time ref Reuters? The photog was under contract with Time. Plus where does it say that Reuters got it from the photog? Plus it isn't a question of the wire service but what Fox reported.

              Where should the people be collecting thier dead? In the buildings that have all collapsed or the only places that might be open?

              The Fox article references what the photographer supposedly said to Reuters.You are using the Time article to debunk the Fox article.The photog's comments to reuters are not mentioned in the Time article.So you really can't use the Time article to debunk the Fox article.

              Where should the people be piling their dead?Certainly not in the middle of the street so as to block traffic which would include aid convoys.I know these people are uneducated,but I'm sure at least some of them have some common sense.
              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

              Comment


              • #52
                Runway isn't that much the problem. It looks like the field only has one taxiway. That well be the choke point.

                BBC is still showing VIP flights landing.
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Jacmel airport to open.

                  http://www.southcom.mil/appssc/news.php?storyId=2069
                  Boston Strong!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JSMoss View Post
                    Good catch on your part. IF they just survived it yesterday then some people have been dragging their feet.
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                      100 Transport planes a day, however, is probably a huge load for the existing tarmac/runway facilities. That is the main limiting factor, as is the availiblility of transport trucks, secured staging lots, and almost as important as the ATCs themselves, MHE and Drivers for MHE.

                      Though with the roads in the condition that they are, they're probably relying on a lot of rotary-wing transport. Which is my specialty. From calculations I made 2 years ago, given 4 CH53s and the suitable equipment, a team of 4 HST-trained personell and 4-8 'cargo-packers' they should be able to fly between 90,000 and 120,000 pounds per hour of supplies from one LZ to a DZ roughly 25 air-minutes away. This is per crew/helo flight, and so long as the helos have fuel and don't have to stop for maintenance. That's only good for CH47s and 53s, however, CH46s would only be running about 20,000-25,000 pph. V22s would be running at ~75,000 pph, but they can also run twice as far in 25 minutes.

                      The 25 minutes single-leg gives 5 minutes on each end for approach, dropping the load, departure, and picking up the load. There is no ground time given. The V-22 gets a speed advantage only when it is carrying its payload internally.
                      Are you talking internal loads or sling? 5 minute turn around time seems very optomistic to me under normal operating conditions. If sling loads then you'll be using a lot of gear that remains at the drop off.
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                        Runway isn't that much the problem. It looks like the field only has one taxiway. That well be the choke point.

                        BBC is still showing VIP flights landing.
                        Yep, you're correct. It was always our chokepoint in Iraq.

                        You can pretty much run a sortie rate of 1 plane every 2 minutes for transport aircraft, and maybe drop it down to 1 per minute if you've got 2 runways.

                        But you need both ample taxi space and parking. And at each parking spot you need a staging lot at least twice as big as the total pallet area of the typical aircraft parking there. That way you have room for 2 forks to unload the aircraft, and a third to unload the staging lot onto lorries or transporting to a central cargo area.

                        Rough estimate of the time to unload a C-130J with 2 forks and 463L pallets, 10 minutes. For a C-17, you're looking at closer to 30. you're also looking at a half-acre of staging lot (relatively flat open terrain with 4x4 or 6x6 dunnage aplenty) per C-17 parking spot in order to not bottleneck in that area.

                        Dunnage tends to be a big bottleneck, mostly because it's simple and relatively unnoticed until you're out of it. you'll need 8 ft 4x4s at a minimum, and at an absolute minimum, 2 per pallet, with a preference of 3. That gives you a request of 18 pieces per C-130 flight, with a minimum of 12, and 54-36 for a C-17, respectively.

                        MHE is also a bottleneck, and there is almost never enough of it. You're going to need 1 fork per staging lot if you don't have lorries to transport, and if you do, you'll still need 1 fork per 3 staging lots plus 2 lorries in order to keep the bottleneck down. You'll also need enough forks at the convoy staging area to transfer the goods to the trucks, so you're looking at 2 more there. And you'll need 2 dedicated forks on the ramp to unload the aircraft, especially if you have 4 or more parking spots. So for a total, with lorries and 6 parking spots, you'll need 4 lorries (7 ton Oshkosh trucks), and 6 forklifts (for fixed-wing ops they will have to be 10k EBFLs or TRAMs). IIRC a MEU only carries 1 or 2, and they'll need to be transported from a beach or port to the airport unless they're flown in by C-17, which should be able to carry as many as 4, depending on the model. Of course those numbers are based on maximum capacity ops, with the aircraft doing hot-pits (engines running the whole time), and a max ground time of 40 minutes.

                        And if you want to simultaneously run helo ops, you'll either have to slow down your optempo (helos tend to throw a monkey wrench into the flow of fixed wing ops if they're on the same airfield), or add in 2 lorries and 2 5k or 10k EBFLs and do it on a different location. Any large piece of suitable asphalt or concrete (like an interstate quality highway) would make an excellent heliport, or a solid grassy field with road access for the lorries from the beach or main airport. Dusty terrain is second best along with just a large chunk of parking lot or other hardball.
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          Are you talking internal loads or sling? 5 minute turn around time seems very optomistic to me under normal operating conditions. If sling loads then you'll be using a lot of gear that remains at the drop off.
                          I'm basing it on the following concept, using 1 Huey, 4 47s or 53Es, and 2 blackhawks, or 3 blackhawks, or 4 hueys.

                          Huey/Blackhawk flight flies in with an 6 man HST and a 2 squad security element (or larger depending on population and threat assessment).

                          If possible 1 Blackhawk (for HST) has extra fuel tanks and remains on site during the op.

                          Site is set up as a LZ (done by 4 of the members of the DZ HST).

                          First wave of gear is staged and slung on main LZ (which would have to be pretty Dang large, like 60 acre field large, for this to work). Work crew is preparing second wave of gear at this time.

                          Security element (commanded by a staff NCO or junior officer that will be in charge of distribution and security (4 or so of the security element will be doing distribution ops)) establishes security and HST establishes communication with Main LZ via SatCom and comm. for the birds (Radioman and LZ commander (a corporal or sergeant)).

                          2xCH53s enter the Main LZ, which should be near to their basing area to save fuel. They pick up the first wave of gear (external lift), and take off for the DZ.

                          (Day ops only). The drop zone has movable panels to show the flight crews where to drop the supplies (roughly 10 yards between drop points). The recieving HST directs the flight crews to the drop points and recieves the supplies.

                          (Night ops only) there is a crows foot which is quickly moved by the 3 non-directing members of the HST (1 is outside director, commander, and radioman; the other three are free to unsling gear and move the crows foot) for every bird. This will take a few minutes, so the individual birds should be staggered approx. 10 mikes apart to allow for this.


                          As the nets and slings are unhooked, the HST builds a 10k net which will contain all of the nets and slings. If there is room to for the last Heavy bird in the DZ to land after dropping the load, they can throw it in the back. If there is not room, they exteral-load the net containing the gear for transit back to the Main LZ.


                          At this point either the HST is going to stay and assist with distribution/security/third and fourth waves (if the DZ is large enough), or a Huey or Blackhawk will fly (or if it stayed) in and pick them up and sortie them to a new DZ where the process will be repeated. Look at flight time plus an hour to set up the new DZ for Comm/Security (a new DZ security/distribution team would have to be in motion as well) and you can run another 100k pounds in an hour to that DZ.
                          Last edited by TacCovert4; 20 Jan 10, 08:37.
                          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                          • #58
                            Of course if you really want to run a true Airhead for supply distribution, fly in 3 platoons or so, including a platoon of supply/truck driver/MHE driver/HST. Then the first wave consists of 2 5k forklifts and 2 7ton long flatbeds. Put the DZ by a road, and put the distribution point about 400 yards or so down the road. Have 2 squads secure the DZ, and use the rest to secure the distribution point. Make sure you have interpreters, and/or signs directing them to the right place. You might want the second wave to bring in 4 Humvees with gun mounts to provide mobility, muscle, and 'intimidation factor' to your security teams. If not, the second wave should bring in fuel blivets and any other supplies the distribution/security/HST will need.

                            Have 1 forklift at the Distribution point, and 1 forklift at the DZ. Each wave will fill up a single 7ton sortie, which can then drive quickly to the distribution point (with a fire team on board to provide escort/support or 2 HMMWVs in a convoy), and be unloaded by the fork at the DP.

                            You'll have to use sling loads and pallets, or cargo containers (20 footers or quadcons). Cargo containers are more secure against vandalism and theft, protect the supplies from the elements, and have the extra perk of being able to build a 'compound' at the DP, if it is for long term use, otherwise just use warehouse pallets (so you don't have to fly out a lot of heavy gear later with a reverse HST).

                            Your max weight would be 14-31 tons per wave, totally dependent on the capacity of the 7 tons (unless you were using CH46s, in which case you'd be limited to ~12 tons (due to the age of the airframes) per flight of 4.

                            That is totally the best case scenario for something like an isolated valley with no roads in or out where you wish to make a permanent distribution center/command post for the relief operation.
                            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Note: if you're going to use V22s, I highly recommend you find a large enough and hard enough piece of ground to use some forklifts and lorries and be able to do all of your loads internally. V22s don't get a weight advantage by carrying externally, and the fuel savings/speed advantages of carrying internally would make their operation in this function far more worthwhile.

                              In my experience, the V22 is a niche logistics platform that is optimized for operations from a large airbase to a small airbase (that can't accept the planes larger than say an AN26) that is within 30 minutes of flight time. I also know for a fact that within a 30m C130 flight, a V22 sortie will be able to outrun the C130, because the V22 doesn't need the taxi time, takeoff or approach that the C130 requires.
                              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                              • #60
                                Tac,

                                What is going to keep the locals from swamping two platoons to get the supplies?

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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