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  • Duncan
    replied
    Ah yes. Thanks for the thoughtful and mature discussion.

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  • Duncan
    replied
    I hope to go again next year. I didn't see much of Cuba. We stayed mostly in what the Cuban's call 'the golden cage,' the resort. I only spent a day in Santa Clara. The feeling I got was that the people loved the ideals of the Revolution but were unhappy with the reality after the 'Special Time' (loss of Soviet support leading to incredible poverty and suffering). There are rich and poor in Cuba. I saw a lot of horse drawn carts but also quite a few expensive German and more modest Korean vehicles. One of the gents pointed out a bread line up by way of answering one of my questions. I couldn't help to think, wow six people lined up for free bread. That's nothing compared to the food bank in my neighborhood, or people in the US working full time but relying on food stamps. Also as an example, I live in a small condominium that took me 18 years to pay for. If I had to rent it now it would be about 60% of my income. Many people in Canada will never own a home but will pay and contribute to someone else's wealth by way of rent and landlord speculation. In Cuba they make $20 a month, and then I give two guys $100 each to show me around. Worker housing, after five years, is $1 a month and after 15 years it is given to you.

    Other things I noticed where for example, less than 2% homeless and I was informed that those folks could have homes if they wanted. Free education and medical care. And the flip side is that I have two mechanical engineers showing me around on their days off to afford a $30,000 vehicle and $40 a month rent while they wait for worker housing. There are so many contradictions in Cuba, and there are in Canada too. In Cuba I am given an apartment but have to work for next to nothing. In Canada I mortgage an apartment and am left with next to nothing after bank payments, taxes, etc... There are doctors who get jobs at the resorts because of the better pay and tips, but they don't have to use Go Fund Me, second mortgages, nor declare bankruptcy because of medical expenses.

    Reading up on Che a bit. It sounds like, from the Cuban perspective, abandoning him was a myth. Che was clear that he planned on carrying the revolution outside of Cuba. Rescuing him in Bolivia, or intervening in the revolution there, would have had terrible political implications for Cuba and taken months to plan. Che's plan was to create many Vietnams and if Cuba interfered it would have provoked greater US military involvement. It also would have been unpopular in the USSR. US military involvement and disaproval from the USSR would have been disastrous.
    Last edited by Duncan; 30 Jun 19, 22:30.

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  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    I can remember the short 'honeymoon' when Castro et al were seen as the 'good guys' overthrowing a corrupt and despotic regime (and by all contemporary accounts Batista's regime was all of that). Publications like the Readers Digest briefly eulogised the 'brave freedom fighters' and compared them with the men of Concord and Lexington. Then the penny dropped - a right wing despotic regime had been swopped for a left wing despotic regime.

    Wellington when British PM made comments to the effect that one should not lend one's backing to an incoming regime until they had been in power for a while and one could judge if they were really any better than the one they had ousted or merely a mirror image.
    Good point....Che Guevara was the Robespierre of the twentieth century- purification by bullets, while |Fidel and Raoul were it's Talleyrand's- let Che run wild, then evict him to carry on his world wide revolution- elsewhere.

    I almost went to Cuba in 2000. Still hope to
    great topic, Duncan

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  • Duncan
    replied
    This quote encapsulates one aspect of the Cuban Revolution for me.
    'Under the old government man exploited man. But since the revolution it's the other way around.'

    Last edited by Duncan; 30 Jun 19, 17:22.

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  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by marktwain View Post

    I do believe that by 1960 they were regretting that poster…..
    Fidel looks like he's buttoned up for a Canadian winter-ear flaps and all...
    I can remember the short 'honeymoon' when Castro et al were seen as the 'good guys' overthrowing a corrupt and despotic regime (and by all contemporary accounts Batista's regime was all of that). Publications like the Readers Digest briefly eulogised the 'brave freedom fighters' and compared them with the men of Concord and Lexington. Then the penny dropped - a right wing despotic regime had been swopped for a left wing despotic regime.

    Wellington when British PM made comments to the effect that one should not lend one's backing to an incoming regime until they had been in power for a while and one could judge if they were really any better than the one they had ousted or merely a mirror image.

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    I have a savings account at Chase! Could you be saying I am paying for it?

    Pruitt
    I do believe that by 1960 they were regretting that poster…..
    Fidel looks like he's buttoned up for a Canadian winter-ear flaps and all...

    Leave a comment:


  • Pruitt
    replied
    I have a savings account at Chase! Could you be saying I am paying for it?

    Pruitt

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  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    California? Who is sponsoring this museum? How did they get Che's body there?

    Pruitt




    just a W>A>G> here, Pruitt....

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  • Duncan
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowshoveler View Post

    ADDRESS THE POST AND NOT THE POSTER. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME YOU"VE BEEN CAUTIONED ABOUT THIS.
    THANK YOU
    ACG STAFF
    .
    That's very difficult to do in the country. I asked some pointed political questions. The two guys I paid to show me Santa Clara tried to answer in a very round-about way, including answers as if they were discussion during the tour. Both of them were well educated but direct answers are problematic because of strict political control and censorship - to the point of making what you say publicly or privately a jail-able offence.
    Last edited by CarpeDiem; 29 Jun 19, 17:49.

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  • Snowshoveler
    replied
    Originally posted by Duncan View Post

    That's an interesting example of the point made in post #11 of emotional judgement precluding an opportunity to learn. You are assuming my politics and residence, both incorrectly, from some pictures I took and chose to share because of historical curiosity and a thought that others might share my curiosity about the Cuban Revolution in a history forum.
    ADDRESS THE POST AND NOT THE POSTER. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME YOU"VE BEEN CAUTIONED ABOUT THIS.
    THANK YOU
    ACG STAFF
    Last edited by CarpeDiem; 29 Jun 19, 17:49.

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  • Duncan
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowshoveler View Post

    ADDRESS THE POST AND NOT THE POSTER. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME YOU"VE BEEN CAUTIONED ABOUT THIS.
    THANK YOU
    ACG STAFF
    .
    That's an interesting example of the point made in post #11 of emotional judgement precluding an opportunity to learn. You are assuming my politics and residence, both incorrectly, from some pictures I took and chose to share because of historical curiosity and a thought that others might share my curiosity about the Cuban Revolution in a history forum.
    Last edited by CarpeDiem; 29 Jun 19, 17:49.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowshoveler
    replied
    ADDRESS THE POST AND NOT THE POSTER. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME YOU"VE BEEN CAUTIONED ABOUT THIS.
    THANK YOU
    ACG STAFF
    Last edited by CarpeDiem; 29 Jun 19, 17:50.

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  • Duncan
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowshoveler View Post
    Where’s the pictures of the firing squads weapons that killed thousands of opposition members including teenagers without a trial?
    I think that when you reduce in this way and allow emotion to be the primary concern you lose the opportunity to examine very important history. It seems a bit cold but can be more productive in the analysis.

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  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    California? Who is sponsoring this museum? How did they get Che's body there?

    Pruitt
    Hopefully in a well sealed coffin....
    Dr. Guevara was an interesting and effective battle strategist. Rather a brutal man....

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  • Snowshoveler
    replied
    Where’s the pictures of the firing squads weapons that killed thousands of opposition members including teenagers without a trial?

    Leave a comment:

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