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  • JBark

    You asked "Why Vietnam".

    Russian Communist Party begot the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party begot the Vietnamese Communist Party. The Vietnamese begot the Indonesian Communist Party. Wait Stop!!! The latter did not happen but why??? Can you smell the fear??

    I do not believe in the Domino Effect as it is to simplistic and stupid. And it detracts from the development of the powerful political movement in each of the above nations for without such these revolutions could not have happen. The Indonesian Communist Party by middle 1960's reportedly had 300,000 cadres and around 2 million members which made it the third largest party in the World as far as communistic parties go. These said parties and their success frighten the world western capitalist power greatly. The US decided war must be waged in Vietnam to prevent their Party from assisting the Indonesian Party to power while allowing the Indonesian military and Islamic militant fundamentalist to destroy and murder the communist/progressive/liberal elements in Indonesia. The fight was over the highly value raw materials of that entire region. Would it be capitalist or communist???

    Comment


    • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      What goes on is a mistake by me...

      Are you willing though to read the Waldron research or not?
      I would suggest you explain the mistake. You've provided a false document. You will not tell us where it is from. You now want us to believe your contradictory posts were some sort of mistake, with no further explanation than that.
      I say once more that your credibility is zero. Anything you bring to this discussion is going to be seen in this light.
      John

      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JBark View Post
        I would suggest you explain the mistake. You've provided false document. You will not tell us where it is from. You now want us to believe your contradictory posts were some sort of mistake, with no further explanation than that.
        I say once more that your credibility is zero. Anything you bring to this discussion is going to be seen in this light.
        Ah of course that's all you want to isn't it? As I suspected. It's about attacking me only isn't it? No interest in the research, just attacking me. It's a standard tactic within this subject. You won't even entertain reading the material just going at me so you don't have to address that so you focus on one document so you can avoid the rest. I'm open to things including errors and you're not so you use that to avoid looking at your own convictions. You speak of my credibility but you only attack me as your actual knowledge of this subject and the wider understanding of what was going on is clearly deficient and you just rely on what you believe you knew from the time. Just saying Oswald or Ruby are a nut is based on nothing but that. You can say what you like about my credibility, it's a cheap comment; the research is there, it's easy for you to get hold of, you've been told where to find it but you're not interested in that are you chap... Bye
        Last edited by copenhagen; 01 Dec 14, 02:24.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
          Ah of course that's all you want to isn't it? As I suspected. It's about attacking me only isn't it? No interest in the research, just attacking me. It's a standard tactic within this subject. You won't even entertain reading the material just going at me so you don't have to address that so you focus on one document so you can avoid the rest. I'm open to things including errors and you're not so you use that to avoid looking at your own convictions. You speak of my credibility but you only attack me as your actual knowledge of this subject and the wider understanding of what was going on is clearly deficient and you just rely on what you believe you knew from the time. Just saying Oswald or Ruby are a nut is based on nothing but that. You can say what you like about my credibility, it's a cheap comment; the research is there, it's easy for you to get hold of, you've been told where to find it but you're not interested in that are you chap... Bye
          That's rich. I've told you that I have acquired the two Waldron books you suggested and now you want to say I show no interest in research. I'm sorry if I can't drop everything else I'm doing to read the books. Perhaps I should hole up somewhere for a few days so I can read them...that good for you?

          Again, I may not know the viewpoint of the cold war as it was sold to you by some other books you've read but that is not going to change the facts of the assassination (which you won't discuss with me) which I know very well. The number of people that were angry or disappointed with the president doesn't alter the facts of the assassination. All the suspicious contacts or suspected contacts don't change the facts of the shooting. You say my knowledge is lacking but this is your method of attacking me, which started with your first post directed at me.

          I suggest if you don't want to be attacked don't post documents without telling exactly where they are from. Don't post documents that are obviously fake. Don't tell us they are from one source and then contradict yourself a few posts later. I know nowhere else on this forum where a poster would do something like this and cry about being attacked.

          DON'T LIE.
          John

          Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
            JBark

            You asked "Why Vietnam".

            Russian Communist Party begot the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party begot the Vietnamese Communist Party. The Vietnamese begot the Indonesian Communist Party. Wait Stop!!! The latter did not happen but why??? Can you smell the fear??

            I do not believe in the Domino Effect as it is to simplistic and stupid. And it detracts from the development of the powerful political movement in each of the above nations for without such these revolutions could not have happen. The Indonesian Communist Party by middle 1960's reportedly had 300,000 cadres and around 2 million members which made it the third largest party in the World as far as communistic parties go. These said parties and their success frighten the world western capitalist power greatly. The US decided war must be waged in Vietnam to prevent their Party from assisting the Indonesian Party to power while allowing the Indonesian military and Islamic militant fundamentalist to destroy and murder the communist/progressive/liberal elements in Indonesia. The fight was over the highly value raw materials of that entire region. Would it be capitalist or communist???
            Not sure what your point is here Bo...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
              JBark

              You asked "Why Vietnam".

              Russian Communist Party begot the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party begot the Vietnamese Communist Party. The Vietnamese begot the Indonesian Communist Party. Wait Stop!!! The latter did not happen but why??? Can you smell the fear??

              I do not believe in the Domino Effect as it is to simplistic and stupid. And it detracts from the development of the powerful political movement in each of the above nations for without such these revolutions could not have happen. The Indonesian Communist Party by middle 1960's reportedly had 300,000 cadres and around 2 million members which made it the third largest party in the World as far as communistic parties go. These said parties and their success frighten the world western capitalist power greatly. The US decided war must be waged in Vietnam to prevent their Party from assisting the Indonesian Party to power while allowing the Indonesian military and Islamic militant fundamentalist to destroy and murder the communist/progressive/liberal elements in Indonesia. The fight was over the highly value raw materials of that entire region. Would it be capitalist or communist???
              I don't believe it either and I don't believe that the US ever saw communism as the huge threat it is made out to be in literature/propoganda. Communism represents an enemy and that is all capitalism needs. With an enemy the intelligence communities get to do their work (and get paid.). With an enemy the men in uniform get to practice their craft (and get more funding.). With an enemy the men that make the war material get to build more weapons (and make more money.) Look up how much was spent in WWII and how much would eventually be spent in Vietnam. Look at how much was spent in Iraq, how much Haliburton alone earned is staggering. What drives this country is money, the making of money. If it can be cloaked in defeating communism, so be it. If the cold war ends we will hunt up a new enemy in some other part of the world but we will strive to keep our military strong and produce new weapons.
              In a conspiracy like this I would not look at those that are pissed at the AG so they kill his boss or those disappointed that he didn't go into Cuba. I would focus on those that looked at Vietnam as the next war to create spending and pissed because JFK wouldn't escalate. When I spoke on Tonkin I meant that I believed the Tonkin incident could still have been executed while JFK ws in office and possibly resulted in an escalation.
              John

              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                JBark

                The immediate opening for US to invade Cuba died with the destruction of the CIA Cuba Exile Army on the beaches of the Bay of Pigs. Cuba did not have to go "anywhere" but the correct situation for the US ground troops to invaded Cuba did go away. Additional reason to not invade with US troop was that JFK and the Russians were in talks and had a settlement. Both reasons the militant right wing elites were so angry with JFK.
                I misunderstood what you were saying here andwanted to get back to your points. Your belief is that he was killed because he didn't go in to Cuba and this was the sole opportunity. First, I don't believe any military or intelligence types would do this, ever. It represents a coup and I don't think they would allow themselves to sink to that level. Soldiers maintain a code and I don't think they would break it because they were mad.
                Secondly the U.S. involvement in Iraq is a prime example of simply waiting for the next guy, or the next guy and they will get what they want. George Sr. started with Iraq and after waiting for Clinton to be gone Bush Jr. went in again.

                Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                You falsely claimed if JFK had lived he would have been forced to introduce ground troops due to the coming Gulf of Tonkin incidence that LBJ used to same effect.
                I didn't claim this. look at how I wrote it. There is a question mark at the end of my statement. This is a way of saying: This could happen (maybe?). Read carefully. We both know I can't state what JFK would have done.

                Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                I believe and many do that the Gulf of Tonkin was fabricated by LBJ and Pentagon to lay the legal framework for the US ground invasion. JFK would likely not have gone along with this.
                There is no reason why this could not have happened if JFK were still alive. Enough altercations like this would have put too much pressure on JFK and he might have given in. My opinion, of course.

                Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                I agreed with your statement that "the CIA and military know of creative ways to bring us to war." Vietnam and Iraq are classic cases for that statement of your.
                Something to keep in mind, yes.
                John

                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                Comment


                • copehagen

                  Why act so weird on my posting #481 "Why Vietnam??

                  Have I stumbled onto your soft spot: that sandbag wall you may have built so the blame goes no higher than the mafia and low level federal hired thugs on killing JFK? The higher level must have been asleep at the wheel and these bottom feeders killed JFK!!

                  I do not know the truth but the more I study this thing the more it appears there is a Vietnam issue involved.
                  Last edited by Bo Archer; 01 Dec 14, 20:54.

                  Comment


                  • JBark

                    I stand corrected on my misunderstanding of your post.

                    I am focus on those who were greatly angered by JFK refusal to engage US ground troops in Vietnam but also in Cuba. JFK sent the advisors to Vietnam but he did not want ground troops and had made an initial plan to commence their withdraw.

                    You too ignore what I am saying here. The Vietnam War was cloaked so as to fool the truthful version that in fact it was a two prong massive assault to roll back the Domino Effect as understood and seen by the Eisenhower and Dulles faction. It involved the creation of an anti communist state in SVN to destroy the Vietnamese Communist Party and the other prong was the assistance with weapons/money/instructions to the Indonesian military to destroy the Indonesian Communist Party. These were massive scale operations by the US govt. and the power elites who controlled the said govt. Richard Nixon was to be the successor but JKF pulled off an upset perhaps by fraud and his elites won temporary.

                    The greatest riches in the World are located in Southeast Asia with Indonesia at the center. It is where Imperial Japan went to war for the same reason. It is vital for world trade and a national wealth. US elites demanded its control and not to lose it behind the Iron Curtain of a communist economy.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                      copehagen

                      Why act so weird on my posting #481 "Why Vietnam??

                      Have I stumbled onto your soft spot: that sandbag wall you may have built so the blame goes no higher than the mafia and low level federal hired thugs on killing JFK? The higher level must have been asleep at the wheel and these bottom feeders killed JFK!!

                      I do not know the truth but the more I study this thing the more it appears there is a Vietnam issue involved.
                      Acting weird? Didn't realise I was acting weird towards you. I agree entirely with the anger within certain quarters of the US establishment at jfk in regards to Cuba, Laos , Vietnam and communism in general. Where I diverge is that these people took out Kennedy. They did however cover it up as these same people were implicated in some very illegal activity in regards to Cuba that would have got them in a whole lot of trouble if it had come out which an in depth investigation beyond the lone shooter idea would have brought about. Do not believe that Carlos Marcello is some low level thug. This was a very powerful man with access to power through his organisation including the access he had been given to the CIA's operations against Castro including an impending coup that was due to occur on 1st December 1963 by Castros 3rd in command, Juan almeida. Now this may be new to you I don't know and was a secret that the government kept secret for decades.I would recommend ultimate sacrifice by Lamar Waldron to really show you this story including its confirmation by the author with dean rusk and how the government was adamant to keep it quiet and prevent possible war..The CIA asked the author to keep almeidas name anonymous right up until a few years ago. I know we disagree but I would recommend this gentleman's outstanding research and see for yourself. I am not weird with you and am sorry you have that perception and I respect your own reading. How could I not otherwise.
                      Last edited by copenhagen; 02 Dec 14, 06:03.

                      Comment


                      • Jack Ruby, upper right, expert on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

                        “The murder of Oswald by Jack Ruby had all the earmarks of an organized crime hit, an action to silence the assassin, so he could not reveal the conspiracy,” wrote HSCA General Counsel G. Robert Blakey and co-author Richard Billings in their book, “The Plot to Kill the President.” (See p. 339.)

                        After Oswald was arrested, 90 minutes after JFK was killed, Ruby began stalking him.

                        When Oswald was brought out to speak with reporters later that night, District Attorney Henry Wade said the suspected assassin was a member of “the Free Cuba Committee.” From the last row, a “newsman” wearing glasses corrected Wade:

                        “Fair Play for Cuba,” he called out.

                        The fact-checker was Ruby, a nightclub operator, who was not a reporter and not known to wear glasses. Oswald was led back to his cell.

                        Thirty-six hours later, Ruby strolled into the basement of the Dallas Police Department headquarters with a loaded pistol in his pocket, just as Oswald was being led out to be transferred to another jail. A phalanx of cops guarded the suspect, but left his front unprotected. Ruby walked up and shot and killed Oswald.


                        http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/th...s-trafficante/

                        I get that this site is pushing an agenda, and probably won't say anything that contradicts the POV, but this is interesting. Maybe for no other reason that I didn't know Ruby did that, maybe for the reason of the interjection.
                        Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                        That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rojik View Post


                          http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/th...s-trafficante/

                          I get that this site is pushing an agenda, and probably won't say anything that contradicts the POV, but this is interesting. Maybe for no other reason that I didn't know Ruby did that, maybe for the reason of the interjection.
                          Thanks Rojik. Ruby was at Parkland on the day of the shooting aswell according to a man who knew him fairly well. There's photographs of him hanging around the police station where Oswald was being held way before he shot him too on top of the one you've shown. This is a guy who'd been involved with the mob for years, going in to Cuba to help Trafficante (the Tampa Godfather) and was a night club owner in the heart of Marcello's territory. I'm ignoring the picture at the end though as that could be anybody... Murder cases don't like co-incidences.

                          Last edited by copenhagen; 02 Dec 14, 06:55.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                            Thanks Rojik. Ruby was at Parkland on the day of the shooting aswell according to a man who knew him fairly well. There's photographs of him hanging around the police station where Oswald was being held way before he shot him too on top of the one you've shown. This is a guy who'd been involved with the mob for years, going in to Cuba to help Trafficante (the Tampa Godfather) and was a night club owner in the heart of Marcello's territory. I'm ignoring the picture at the end though as that could be anybody... Murder cases don't like co-incidences.
                            It makes sense that he would hang around Parkland, if he grieved for Jackie as he said he did. It seems to be spoken about as to represent something sinister, I don't see that. I think it makes for the case of him being fairly looney, not a conspirator.
                            John

                            Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                              JBark

                              I stand corrected on my misunderstanding of your post.

                              I am focus on those who were greatly angered by JFK refusal to engage US ground troops in Vietnam but also in Cuba. JFK sent the advisors to Vietnam but he did not want ground troops and had made an initial plan to commence their withdraw.
                              Yes, I understand that. I don't think I've been disagreeing on this point. I don't see this getting JFK killed though.

                              Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                              You too ignore what I am saying here. The Vietnam War was cloaked so as to fool the truthful version that in fact it was a two prong massive assault to roll back the Domino Effect as understood and seen by the Eisenhower and Dulles faction. It involved the creation of an anti communist state in SVN to destroy the Vietnamese Communist Party and the other prong was the assistance with weapons/money/instructions to the Indonesian military to destroy the Indonesian Communist Party. These were massive scale operations by the US govt. and the power elites who controlled the said govt. Richard Nixon was to be the successor but JKF pulled off an upset perhaps by fraud and his elites won temporary.
                              I think I understand the political (real and not so real) and economic reasons that brought the US to Vietnam. I'd like to see someone explain in detail why, at this time in history, a president gets killed over something like this. If a case is to be made for this as a motive then I take it you disagree with the Marcello thinking.
                              John

                              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                              Comment


                              • Guys give the rest of the readers a break. Your argument is killing the thread.

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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