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  • #31
    cOPE- COPE

    Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
    You read it in the 70's? 40 years later and nothing else to learn then? I've addressed the topic. Just above. Fairly straight forward really. I was talking to Arnold about it, the man who started this thread . If you dont want to get involved, don't. This is a good discussion, why do you have to be such an arse about it?
    You dragged me in to this on post #13, then you dodged the couple of queries I asked.
    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by unclefred View Post
      It pretty well puts to sleep the idea that he acted alone, at the very least. As you alluded to, the evidence against him is circumstantial and most of it could have been refuted and had doubt placed on it by an attorney in court. The chain of custody on key items such as the 'magic bullet', postal records, fingerprints etc. was broken and could have been discredited. Witness statements don't work well in the official timeline. along with what he may have brought out himself in testimony, it's no wonder they had Ruby silence him. Remember, the head of security at Oswalds move from jail was allowed to PICK HIS OWN questions and still failed the polygraph.
      None of this is proof of anything. This is exactly the type of out-of-context material that keeps the 'conspiracy' alive.

      Yes, the CIA had a file on Oswald. They have files on literally millions of people. This is not significant.

      Yes, Oswald provided information to the FBI. Thousands of people do, mostly criminals & nutjobs (who are not automatically inaccurate just because they're crazy).

      Neither fact proves a single thing. Neither fact makes Oswald special.

      Chain of custody is often broken on evidence. And witness statements normally do not line up-witnesses are the least reliable form of evidence. its only in TV shows that the witnesses match up.

      You do not 'fail' a polygraph. It is a device that measures certain body responses. If you are discussing something of extreme emotional trauma to a subject, his or her body will react, and the device will detect that. It does not mean he is lying, simply that his body reacted.

      IMO the biggest reason there is a conspiracy theory is all this amateur sleuthing going on.

      The simple truth is that most murders have major issues left unanswered, all the more so when it is stranger-on-stranger. Unlike TV shows, where the detectives can depict the murder second-by-second, real murder investigations seldom tell the complete tale.

      that's why I don't buy the conspiracy: because the entire mess reads like a real murder file, with screwed up procedures, unanswered questions, and conflicting statements.

      You get a killing where everything lines up neatly and cleanly, then start wondering whether it was coordinated by someone with an eye on a jury verdict.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #33
        I've split off the rather interesting exchange on JKF/Oswald into a separate thread. Now, any ideas where it should be moved to?
        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
          I've split off the rather interesting exchange on JKF/Oswald into a separate thread. Now, any ideas where it should be moved to?
          The Twilight Zone forum?
          the Scully & Mulder subforum??


          The Two Thousand truths are out there forum???

          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

          Comment


          • #35
            Likely as good here as anywhere else, IMO, G.

            Some would say Cold War, I suspect, but that quite obviously has not been established.


            On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

            ACG History Today

            BoRG

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              None of this is proof of anything. This is exactly the type of out-of-context material that keeps the 'conspiracy' alive.

              Yes, the CIA had a file on Oswald. They have files on literally millions of people. This is not significant.

              Yes, Oswald provided information to the FBI. Thousands of people do, mostly criminals & nutjobs (who are not automatically inaccurate just because they're crazy).

              Neither fact proves a single thing. Neither fact makes Oswald special.

              Chain of custody is often broken on evidence. And witness statements normally do not line up-witnesses are the least reliable form of evidence. its only in TV shows that the witnesses match up.

              You do not 'fail' a polygraph. It is a device that measures certain body responses. If you are discussing something of extreme emotional trauma to a subject, his or her body will react, and the device will detect that. It does not mean he is lying, simply that his body reacted.

              IMO the biggest reason there is a conspiracy theory is all this amateur sleuthing going on.

              The simple truth is that most murders have major issues left unanswered, all the more so when it is stranger-on-stranger. Unlike TV shows, where the detectives can depict the murder second-by-second, real murder investigations seldom tell the complete tale.

              that's why I don't buy the conspiracy: because the entire mess reads like a real murder file, with screwed up procedures, unanswered questions, and conflicting statements.

              You get a killing where everything lines up neatly and cleanly, then start wondering whether it was coordinated by someone with an eye on a jury verdict.
              IMO the biggest reason there is a conspiracy theory is all this amateur sleuthing going on.
              No, the biggest reason is because the Government at it's highest levels lied to the American people. they deliberately covered up pertinent facts and stated so plainly to each other, on the record we now have. Our own Government, the HSCA and Church Comm. were formed because of the obvious weaknesses of the Warren Report.

              the HSCA was created to investigate the assassinations of JFK and MLK. The HSCA issued its findings in 1979, stating, "The committee believes, on the basis of evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy." The committee recommended to the Justice Department that the case be reopened.

              Senator Schweiker told a TV audience that "the [Warren] report...has collapsed like a house of cards" and spoke of "senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up."

              http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/ar...sPageId=434023

              There is much more to the CIA involvement with LHO than 'keeping a file on him'. As you stated, you have not read the new findings in the documents released by the ARRB in 1993. Nor do you understand the implications, apparently, of other entities impersonating LHO at the embassies just weeks before the shooting.
              Yes, officially the language of a polygraph that shows deception is not called 'failing it'. That is the common term in usage. Semantics don't alter the fact of his test showing 'deception' (official term). Anyone can see the implications of that. Even picking his own questions he showed deception.

              It's clear to anyone doing any research that the Warren Comm. was a whitewash, even our own government found that in 1977, officially. We have taped recordings of LBJ stating that, in effect during the commissions tenure. I don't see how, with what we know about LHO now that one could be persuaded to believe he was a 'lone nut' that acted alone, according to the Warren whitewash.

              Even though you have made up your mind because of things you 'read in the seventies and forgot', Here are some good sites with info and primary documents about the findings of ARRB and the HSCA. There is a lot to learn, for those who are interested. It's a shame that our modern media has chosen to ignore the findings.



              http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde..._Assassination

              http://www.history-matters.com/archi...a_lopezrpt.htm

              http://www.history-matters.com/jfkmurder.htm
              Last edited by unclefred; 15 Apr 13, 01:58.
              "A common thug can kill someone, but it takes the talents of an intelligence service to make a murder appear to be a suicide or accident death." -- James Angleton, CIA, Chief of Counterintelligence.

              Comment


              • #37
                On November 25 1963, the day of the Kennedy funeral, Assistant Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach sent a memo to Bill Moyers of the new Johnson White House. He had begun writing it the day earlier, within hours after Oswald's death at the hands of Jack Ruby.

                The second paragraph stated: "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

                Given that the authorities could not possibly by November 25 know these things to be true, and Katzenbach later admitted he knew very little at this stage, the memo is clearly advocating a political course irrespective of the truth of the assassination. http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde...atzenbach_Memo

                In Warren Report, Gerald Ford changes position of JFK's back wound: The single-bullet theory — In July 1997, pages from the original draft of the Warren Report were released. Among them was a page describing the path of the famous single—or magic—bullet. The memo states, "A bullet had entered his back at a point slightly above the shoulder to the right of the spine." In pen, Ford changed the report to read, "A bullet had entered the back of his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine," thus making the single-bullet theory plausible.
                http://www.jfklancer.com/Ford-Rankin.html

                Photo of Lee Harvey Oswald and David Ferrie in the Civil Air Patrol — In 1993, PBS' Frontline secured a 1951 photograph of the Louisiana Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans that shows both David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald in the same unit. Ferrie was included in New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's investigation (see previous entry). However, Ferrie denied to FBI investigators having ever known Oswald or having had any association with him. Ferrie of course, died before he could testify.



                CIA Document #1345-1057: the New Orleans connection — Released in 1993, this document states that New Orleans businessman Clay Shaw "was in touch with the DCS [the CIA's Domestic Contact Service] from December 1948 to May 1956." In 1966, New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison opened an investigation into the New Orleans connection to the assassination of JFK, which formed the basis of Oliver Stone's film JFK. Garrison's investigation centered on an association between Shaw, former FBI agent Guy Bannister, pilot David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald. In 1969, Shaw was charged with conspiring to kill Kennedy. Shaw testified under oath that he had never worked for the CIA. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/ar...PageId=1168931
                "A common thug can kill someone, but it takes the talents of an intelligence service to make a murder appear to be a suicide or accident death." -- James Angleton, CIA, Chief of Counterintelligence.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                  The Twilight Zone forum?
                  the Scully & Mulder subforum??


                  The Two Thousand truths are out there forum???

                  Speaking of Canadians:

                  The Winnipeg Airport Incident

                  Paris Flammonde
                  The Kennedy Conspiracy, Meredith Press, New York, 1969, pages 29–32

                  The Winnipeg Free Press reported that an FBI man, Merryl Nelson, had checked out a story told by a local businessman whose name was withheld for “security reasons” until November 1967. At that time Maclean’s, a leading Canadian magazine, ran a more complete coverage of the fascinating incident.
                  The informant, an obviously sincere and sensible Mennonite, and father of four, named Richard Giesbrecht, related a conversation he overheard on February 13, 1964, in the Horizon Room, a cocktail lounge in the sweepingly modern Winnipeg International Airport. The nature of the conversation led the thirty-five-year-old businessman, who was at the flight terminal to meet a client, to quickly conclude the two participants had knowledge regarding the assassination of the President. The more he listened, the more he became certain of his suspicions.
                  He described one of the men as having “the oddest hair and eyebrows I’d ever seen. The eyebrows were wide and sort of streaky. The hair was very shiny and it started quite far back on his head.” Giesbrecht thought this one of the pair resembled Stan Laurel “when he gets that look as if he’s going to cry,” and he recalls he wore heavy-rimmed glasses. Giesbrecht now says this man was David W. Ferrie.

                  http://www.jfkassassination.net/winnipeg.htm
                  "A common thug can kill someone, but it takes the talents of an intelligence service to make a murder appear to be a suicide or accident death." -- James Angleton, CIA, Chief of Counterintelligence.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                    You dragged me in to this on post #13, then you dodged the couple of queries I asked.
                    I didnt dodge anything. You're the one who started poking fun at me with your martians did it cartoons and telling me Im off topic. If you meant otherwise then you were completely unclear. So please dont accuse me of being the one that has treated you harshly. Im quite happy to declare a mis-understanding though and carry on if you wish...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                      The Twilight Zone forum?
                      the Scully & Mulder subforum??


                      The Two Thousand truths are out there forum???

                      Or should I take that offer back?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by unclefred View Post
                        No, the biggest reason is because the Government at it's highest levels lied to the American people. they deliberately covered up pertinent facts and stated so plainly to each other, on the record we now have. Our own Government, the HSCA and Church Comm. were formed because of the obvious weaknesses of the Warren Report.

                        the HSCA was created to investigate the assassinations of JFK and MLK. The HSCA issued its findings in 1979, stating, "The committee believes, on the basis of evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy." The committee recommended to the Justice Department that the case be reopened.

                        Senator Schweiker told a TV audience that "the [Warren] report...has collapsed like a house of cards" and spoke of "senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up."

                        http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/ar...sPageId=434023

                        There is much more to the CIA involvement with LHO than 'keeping a file on him'. As you stated, you have not read the new findings in the documents released by the ARRB in 1993. Nor do you understand the implications, apparently, of other entities impersonating LHO at the embassies just weeks before the shooting.
                        Yes, officially the language of a polygraph that shows deception is not called 'failing it'. That is the common term in usage. Semantics don't alter the fact of his test showing 'deception' (official term). Anyone can see the implications of that. Even picking his own questions he showed deception.

                        It's clear to anyone doing any research that the Warren Comm. was a whitewash, even our own government found that in 1977, officially. We have taped recordings of LBJ stating that, in effect during the commissions tenure. I don't see how, with what we know about LHO now that one could be persuaded to believe he was a 'lone nut' that acted alone, according to the Warren whitewash.

                        Even though you have made up your mind because of things you 'read in the seventies and forgot', Here are some good sites with info and primary documents about the findings of ARRB and the HSCA. There is a lot to learn, for those who are interested. It's a shame that our modern media has chosen to ignore the findings.



                        http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde..._Assassination

                        http://www.history-matters.com/archi...a_lopezrpt.htm

                        http://www.history-matters.com/jfkmurder.htm
                        Yes it is clear that the government in the aftermath wanted LHO to be the lone gunmen for the reasons already adhered to. A conspiracy or belief in one could lead to perhaps Cuba and then perhaps war. LBJ is on record as pretty much saying this. Evidence to the contrary was suppressed , we know this now. It's not a guess or hunch. All the surveillance on LHO was suppressed, so was that fact that a legend was being created for him as a Marxist interested in assasination, none of this is speculation anymore. What this means well that is speculation but the information itself is not.... So we can take two pieces of fact in this case. 1. A legend was made for him as I described above and 2. subsequently he did become the chief suspect then accused in the assasination. Does that mean he didnt pull the trigger, of course not but it does mean that some people should be much more intrigued by this and and show more respect to some very great researchers..., people who often have their mental faculties questioned,* one example of which we have aleady seen today...

                        * with genuine research damaged by some genuine nutters. See the video on Dallas being at a lattitude co-ordiante consistent with Freemason beliefs to see what I mean. Creates a lot of problems...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                          Likely as good here as anywhere else, IMO, G.

                          Some would say Cold War, I suspect, but that quite obviously has not been established.


                          All I would say is this .The JFK assasination has many connections credible or not to what was happening with Cuba at this time. Some within the CIA's JMWave operation to kill Casto thought JFK was a traitor and a communist. Might seem over the top now but thats how they thought. Unclefred will be aware of the name David Morales I'm sure. Many in the government including his brother LBJ and Hoover thought his death might have been some blowback from the Cuba operations so I would suggest that this is not as disconnected from talking about Cuba as some might think...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            With all fairness

                            Originally posted by unclefred View Post
                            Speaking of Canadians:

                            The Winnipeg Airport Incident

                            Paris Flammonde
                            The Kennedy Conspiracy, Meredith Press, New York, 1969, pages 29–32

                            The Winnipeg Free Press reported that an FBI man, Merryl Nelson, had checked out a story told by a local businessman whose name was withheld for “security reasons” until November 1967. At that time Maclean’s, a leading Canadian magazine, ran a more complete coverage of the fascinating incident.
                            The informant, an obviously sincere and sensible Mennonite, and father of four, named Richard Giesbrecht, related a conversation he overheard on February 13, 1964, in the Horizon Room, a cocktail lounge in the sweepingly modern Winnipeg International Airport. The nature of the conversation led the thirty-five-year-old businessman, who was at the flight terminal to meet a client, to quickly conclude the two participants had knowledge regarding the assassination of the President. The more he listened, the more he became certain of his suspicions.
                            He described one of the men as having “the oddest hair and eyebrows I’d ever seen. The eyebrows were wide and sort of streaky. The hair was very shiny and it started quite far back on his head.” Giesbrecht thought this one of the pair resembled Stan Laurel “when he gets that look as if he’s going to cry,” and he recalls he wore heavy-rimmed glasses. Giesbrecht now says this man was David W. Ferrie.

                            http://www.jfkassassination.net/winnipeg.htm
                            Beign of some distant Mennonite background ,I'm suspicious of any story that claims that as a stamp of 'authenticity'. We can sling it wht th e best of them..

                            this does illistrate a huge difficulty with Kennedy conspiracy theories-
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              People have talked and said things over the years, of that there is no doubt.This should be borne in mind when people say oh but someone would have talked. Some are more interesting than others, some are mre credible than others...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Of course I think one has to say well actually that would explain that then with some evidence as some people do go down every rabbit hole possible. For example this is the footage of the Head of the Secret Service instructing his perplexed agents to not protect the back of the car ultimately exposing him to rifle fire. It does look very odd so here it is....



                                However one must take into account information like this that JFK wanted his agents to back off and not be so close as he was "campaigning" Agents said he was hard to protect.... Something like this can explain what some think is evidence. Its conclusion is more probable than the alternative....

                                Four days before the fateful 1963 motorcade in Dallas when John F. Kennedy was fatally shot in the head, the young president had requested that his secret service agents give him some space.

                                "President Kennedy made a decision, and he politely told everybody, 'You know, we're starting the campaign now, and the people are my asset,'" said agent Jerry Blaine. "And so, we all of a sudden understood. It left a firm command to stay off the back of the car."

                                Blaine's revelations, as well as those from JFK's secret service agents in a forthcoming book, "The Kennedy Detail" and in a series of interviews with the Discovery Channel, reveal how challenging this charismatic president could be to protect http://news.discovery.com/history/jf...et-service.htm
                                Last edited by copenhagen; 15 Apr 13, 13:38.

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