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  • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
    At the risk of inflating your ego further I have to add my compliments on the thread as well. Informative and you handled the trolling from the expected quarters well.

    Nicely done.
    My ego is grateful for your comments.

    Comment


    • Copenhagen

      I have an inability to follow your logic here. You are an apparent good soul but you can not stomach a possible notion that dangerous economic/government US elites may have allied with the Mob to killed JFK. However, you readily accept there existed the said alliance in regards to Cuba and the attempts to kill Castro. This is a contradiction found unacceptable to me. Upon these killers reentry onto US soil do they magically transform into non violent citizens of the City on the Hill not able or desirous to kill anyone? What grounds do you have to explain this magic?

      I would think you know US History since WW2 in which across the earth the hunt was on to eliminate any nation's leaders that shown any sense of independence from the US capitalism system of production and governance. They sought alliance with the compliance and docile dictators types who would sell out their nation for US dollars. The killing of world leaders and purging of that portion of population considered independent/progressive was the common USA pattern repeated over and over. The very first step was to hire the killing thugs/mobsters of that said target nation into a secret alliance. Cuba was just a small nation targeted among many.

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      • copenhagan

        Lets take Vietnam for example. It was marked by these said power elites as a massive killing field to stop the spread of communism so as not to lose the vast natural resource riches of Asia. Much was the legacy of Eisenhower and the Dulles brothers. When their workhorse/CIA commenced to create out of nothing the nation to become South Vietnam one of the first act to permit viability was the hiring of the criminal gangs of the Saigon area (their mobsters one can say) to commence the killing and controlling. JFK mistake was while he once was a good anti communist Catholic boy on the right he began more cognitive of the virtues of coalition government and not fighting a land war in Asia with USA kids thus moving more left. His hard education of baring witness to the insane power elites behavior during the Bay of Pig disaster assisted this development greatly. JFK was going to overthrow the entire massively design program to stop communism growth in Asia by leaving Vietnam at least this is how the right wing saw it. His death was easy simply allow your private contractors (Mob) do what they been wanting to do and then quietly remove certain key Mob elites and paid off the lesser ones plus a massive public relations scam blaming the Left.

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        • It pains to say I can agree with much of what Mountain Man posted in his post #372.

          But, there exist some problems here also. Mountain does to tell us why there has to be a Vietnam War except say it was a testing ground for the Pentagon new toys. Only the powerful economic elites of USA tell us where a war is to be fought and the military will follow. The Pentagon elites had a field day in Vietnam with their toys but it was only an advantage taken while having to be there. They did go joyfully at least for much of the time.

          Nor does Mountain tell us why Kennedy moved to the position of no ground war in Vietnam with US troops and a withdrawal. To say only wrong war, wrong place, and wrong people is not to reveal the motive that caused that saying. Yes LBJ went along with these power elites and promised to esculate the war as needed but Kennedy drew a death penalty for having turned against those same elites in the middle of the game.

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          • Oh I considered very much in my reading. Very much considered it. Kennedy clashed very much with the establishment over issues such as Americas relationship with communism and Vietnam. There is little doubt that agents of the CIA aswell as members of the Cuban exile movement were involved in this but they were people who were ultimately connected to the mafia. The evidence for it being Carlos marcello and santo trafficante being behind this is there. The evidence that it was LBJ and clint murchison etc is not. This is the Oliver stone narrative particularly the narrative illustrated in the Donald Sutherland scene but the evidence for it is not there. So much of hat scene is postulated and simply not true. Now the cover up certainly was done by the government including the White House, the CIA and the FBI and as I have explained in previous posts had good reason to do so due to the anti Castro operations that would have put a lot of people in jail and there was the understandable fear that if that had been Castro it might cause war. The mafias involvement in operation mongoose and the Juan Almeida coup meant they knew this.I have considered what you say about Vietnam etc and did so for a long time but the evidence doesn't lead there, it leads to a mafia hit. They had the means the motive and the opportunity. The hit was to get rid of RFK's massive pressure on them. Read to Rojiks post. Who was Jack Ruby. Why would he essentially sacrifice himself? Rojiks right , he's the rabbit hole. When RFK heard what ruby had done , he obtained Ruby's phone records. For a fairly low level mobster he'd been talking to many of the people who the Kennedy brothers had been trying to indite before and after his presidency. It was desperate organised crime doing a desperate thing.
            Last edited by copenhagen; 21 Aug 14, 02:36.

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            • What did the phone records show?
              SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

              Comment


              • Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                What did the phone records show?
                As I said basically it was a great many of the people who RFK had been trying to indite whilst attorney general and when he had been on the racketeering committee with his brother before the 60 election...

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                • Do you remember or know what names?
                  SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                    Do you remember or know what names?
                    The congressional investigators in the 70's looked at this and RFK's son said his father had investigators look into it for him after Ruby shot Oswald and during the Garrison trial.

                    People such as Barney Barker a Hoffa associate with the mafia and close associate during Hoffa's hearing under bobby Kennedy , Lenny Patrick , a Giancana capo, Irwin weiner a major mob finance figure of Giancana and associate of Hoffa. All chased by RFK and the justice department. They were not people Ruby was known to associate with much before 1963. There are more.

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                    • Thanks... I will look into it more.
                      SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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                      • Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                        Thanks... I will look into it more.
                        You're welcome

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                          Oh I considered very much in my reading. Very much considered it. Kennedy clashed very much with the establishment over issues such as Americas relationship with communism and Vietnam. There is little doubt that agents of the CIA aswell as members of the Cuban exile movement were involved in this but they were people who were ultimately connected to the mafia. The evidence for it being Carlos marcello and santo trafficante being behind this is there. The evidence that it was LBJ and clint murchison etc is not. This is the Oliver stone narrative particularly the narrative illustrated in the Donald Sutherland scene but the evidence for it is not there. So much of hat scene is postulated and simply not true. Now the cover up certainly was done by the government including the White House, the CIA and the FBI and as I have explained in previous posts had good reason to do so due to the anti Castro operations that would have put a lot of people in jail and there was the understandable fear that if that had been Castro it might cause war. The Mafia's involvement in operation mongoose and the Juan Almeida coup meant they knew this.I have considered what you say about Vietnam etc and did so for a long time but the evidence doesn't lead there, it leads to a Mafia hit. They had the means the motive and the opportunity. The hit was to get rid of RFK's massive pressure on them. Read to Rojiks post. Who was Jack Ruby. Why would he essentially sacrifice himself? Rojiks right , he's the rabbit hole. When RFK heard what ruby had done , he obtained Ruby's phone records. For a fairly low level mobster he'd been talking to many of the people who the Kennedy brothers had been trying to indite before and after his presidency. It was desperate organised crime doing a desperate thing.

                          I would just like to add Bo as it links in with partially what you were saying. Men such as E Howard Hunt who was later arrested along with some Cuban compadres at Watergate utterly hated Kennedy. Because of the Bay of Pigs and other issues he thought he was a traitor and a communist appeaser. A more notable man in this regard was a man called David Morales. Morales was considered the pit bull of the CIA of this period. He's been associated with a number of coups and executive murders in Central and South America, is thought to be the agent present at Che Guevara's death in Bolivia and ended up in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam*, I think associated with the Phoenix Programme. He was also heavily involved in the JM WAVE and ZR RIFLE operations to remove Castro. He was considered a "super patriot" and would do whatever it took to "protect America" He like Hunt utterly loathed the Kennedys with a raging passion. Through Operation Mongoose he had become very very good friends with Johnny Roselli, the mob go between the the Mafia leadership and the CIA as well as various men involved in the Cuban operations such as Bernard Barker, Frank Fiorini aka Sturgis ( both men were also arrested breaking into Watergate along with various Cuban Exile veterans) and Manuel Artime. Now these men were CIA contract agents but they were also mob operatives so they knew the Kennedy hating Morales very well as well as the likes of Johnny Roselli. They were also heavily into the drugs trade and worked through Florida for Santo Trafficante for many years whilst doing their CIA Castro work and some carried this into the 80's. Smugglign drugs along with weapons is great cover. The point is a CIA killer like Morales was as thick as thieves with these men and the Mafia had totally compromised the Cuban operations which gave them the leverage when it came to the government needing to cover up their illegal operations in Cuba with the mob post Dallas. The likes of Morales who was pure CIA would have been in a position to feed the mob what they needed. I'm saying I sympathise with your view that the CIA etc could have done the deed and I'm saying in a way a part of the agency did but that it was encouraged and pursued at the very top, well the evidence isn't there. Morales in a drunken state in the 1970's when the Kennedys were brought up in conversation was reported to have said to his attorney

                          "I was in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got the little bastard"
                          Am I open to more CIA men of the era being more into this than we thought. Men such as George Joannides, David Atlee Phillips and so forth, of course I am and the CIA does seem to have messed up big time but that Richard Helms was behind this along with LBJ, Generals and big business. The evidence doesn't lead there.

                          * It is worth noting that at this time this is when the Trafficante heroin smuggling organisation moved into South East Asia.
                          Last edited by copenhagen; 22 Aug 14, 06:22.

                          Comment


                          • Hi Cope

                            Surely non of this will be put to bed one way or another, till either the Russian or Cuban Intelligence files are opened?

                            In the absence of that happening, a lot of what's been said prior (by many members) is speculation born upon a spiders web of intrigue, fog of war and mis-information!

                            Regards

                            PS: It's been an enjoyable read and have sat on hands many a time for fear of becoming embroiled

                            PPS: Have you read Tim Weiner's Legacy of Ashes (The History of the CIA). If you haven't well worth a read.
                            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                              Hi Cope

                              Surely non of this will be put to bed one way or another, till either the Russian or Cuban Intelligence files are opened?

                              In the absence of that happening, a lot of what's been said prior (by many members) is speculation born upon a spiders web of intrigue, fog of war and mis-information!

                              Regards

                              PS: It's been an enjoyable read and have sat on hands many a time for fear of becoming embroiled

                              PPS: Have you read Tim Weiner's Legacy of Ashes (The History of the CIA). If you haven't well worth a read.
                              Nothing wrong with becoming embroiled if its done on the right spirit.

                              Russian and Cuban files* wont shed any more light if Waldron is right and he probably is by the look of it. You should read his work, the evidence is very compelling for it not circumstantial or vague. Compelling. With this case, you have to read and do the leg work, it's as simple as that and when you do as many here will testify you stop being whimsical about it. It doesnt simply open up the JFK issue it opens up a lot of things aswell as you brought up the book on the CIA. As Rojik said about Jack Ruby. Its the Rabbit hole that leads to New Orleans.

                              *Might on Watergate though

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                                In the absence of that happening, a lot of what's been said prior (by many members) is speculation born upon a spiders web of intrigue, fog of war and mis-information!
                                Hey Andy,

                                I don't know how much you do or don't know about the subject of ancient Rome but the Catiline conspiracy was the JFK of its day. The more you read, the more rabbit holes open up, until you can find yourself agreeing with diametrically opposed points of view because both make as much sense as the other.

                                So it is with this. But it's fun. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong, and as anyone that actually knew the real story is long dead, nobody will ever really know the truth. But just like the Catiline conspiracy there are large red flags all over that make you believe that the official story is a loooong way from the truth.
                                Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                                That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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