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  • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
    Thanks for posting that cope!
    No problem. The trauma team maintained that when they first assessed him he had a wound of entry in his throat. The doctor still does.
    Last edited by copenhagen; 14 Aug 14, 15:47.

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    • Originally posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
      The JFK assassination legacy:

      What tangled webs we do weave when first we practice to deceive.
      Ah yes David Ferrie via Joe Pesci, an interesting watch but much of it is off base particularly as Stone never really addressed who Ferrie really was and of course the Donald Sutherland scene. Oliver Stone still follows that tack which does surprise me.

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      • Well, with any luck at all on all kinds of levels, we only have three more years until the files are opened.
        I'm not holding-out that we'll see the crown jewels displayed, but there just may be enough info available to draw some mighty powerful and reasonable conclusions as to just who or whom did what, how, when, or didn't in any combination to point a definitive finger once and for all. Doubt it, but I'll hold-out for the possibility.
        Youthful Exuberance Is No Match For Old Age And Treachery.

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        • Originally posted by HMS Jr. View Post
          Well, with any luck at all on all kinds of levels, we only have three more years until the files are opened.
          I'm not holding-out that we'll see the crown jewels displayed, but there just may be enough info available to draw some mighty powerful and reasonable conclusions as to just who or whom did what, how, when, or didn't in any combination to point a definitive finger once and for all. Doubt it, but I'll hold-out for the possibility.
          Much of it will be gone I would imagine. I can recommend the work of Lamar Waldron who has done some amazing work on this subject. What it leads to is very interesting. This has been discussed before earlier in the thread and was suspected by the House Committee on assassinations in the late 70's but they didn't have enough to go forward and were blocked extensively by the CIA.

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          • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
            Its saved them till Hoover died really. Once Hoover died they now came under huge pressure. Up to this point Hoover had said organsed crime of serious note was a myth, Marcello is a tomato salesman, lets chase communsits instead. Hoover was also a serious gambler. Who controlled the gambling rackets. You guessed it.
            Not at all.

            What did the Mafia in was RICO. Even if Hoover had fully embraced the concept of attacking organized crime (which he wasn't-he was a political enforcer), the tools just weren't there. You could pick off individual Mob types here and there, but you couldn't hurt the organization until RICO.

            RICO and complacency did the Mob in. Buy the time they adjusted to the new legal landscape they were crippled.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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            • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
              Not at all.

              What did the Mafia in was RICO. Even if Hoover had fully embraced the concept of attacking organized crime (which he wasn't-he was a political enforcer), the tools just weren't there. You could pick off individual Mob types here and there, but you couldn't hurt the organization until RICO.

              RICO and complacency did the Mob in. Buy the time they adjusted to the new legal landscape they were crippled.
              RICO was part of it. A very big part obviously. Up to this point though the FBI had not really gone after the Mafia which had left a lot of lower field agents baffled as Hoover had basically kept the FBI away from it preferring to chase "communists" and supposedly fearing the Mob would corrupt his agents, with the Bureaus reputation basically being his highest concern. Up till that point the only people who had seriously gone after the mob had been the Justice department under the relentless drive of Robert Kennedy and supported by his brother with both of them having been on the 195759 Senate Labor Rackets Committee before JFK's presidency. After JFK's murder the justice department's pursuit of Marcello and Trafficante fell right back to nigh on pointless. Marecllo went back to being described by law enforcement as a "Tomato Salesman"

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              • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                RICO was part of it. A very big part obviously. Up to this point though the FBI had not really gone after the Mafia which had left a lot of lower field agents baffled as Hoover had basically kept the FBI away from it preferring to chase "communists" and supposedly fearing the Mob would corrupt his agents, with the Bureaus reputation basically being his highest concern. Up till that point the only people who had seriously gone after the mob had been the Justice department under the relentless drive of Robert Kennedy and supported by his brother with both of them having been on the 195759 Senate Labor Rackets Committee before JFK's presidency. After JFK's murder the justice department's pursuit of Marcello and Trafficante fell right back to nigh on pointless. Marecllo went back to being described by law enforcement as a "Tomato Salesman"
                Not entirely accurate, but the simple fact was that Hoover was a fixated upon the Red Threat-he got his start hunting anarchists (the movement), and never really deviated from that. He was also an old-school political policeman.

                A lot of people like to make up excuses why he ignored the Mafia, but the above is the simple fact: he cared nothing about crime unless it was a source of embarrassment to him personally, such as the flamboyant gangsters of the 30s. He was always focused upon the Reds, and most importantly, his opinion of who was Red.

                The Mob didn't create waves, and it was anti-Communist. To him, it was unimportant. Even useful at times, such as its contacts in Cuba after Batista went under.

                But no one blackmailed J Edgar. You have to give the devil his due: the man had files on everyone, and little or no restraints on how he would operate.

                Not that the Mob needed to blackmail him-he left them largely alone.

                I will say this about JFK: in 1963, the Mob did not have the capability to pull off a major assassination, but if they needed JFK out of the way, they could easily have blackmailed him. Now, if Robert had died first, I would have looked for a Mob connection.

                Nor do I think J. Edgar had anything to do with JFK's death, although I would not be surprised to learn that he hindered the investigation afterward.
                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                  Not entirely accurate, but the simple fact was that Hoover was a fixated upon the Red Threat-he got his start hunting anarchists (the movement), and never really deviated from that. He was also an old-school political policeman.

                  A lot of people like to make up excuses why he ignored the Mafia, but the above is the simple fact: he cared nothing about crime unless it was a source of embarrassment to him personally, such as the flamboyant gangsters of the 30s. He was always focused upon the Reds, and most importantly, his opinion of who was Red.

                  The Mob didn't create waves, and it was anti-Communist. To him, it was unimportant. Even useful at times, such as its contacts in Cuba after Batista went under.

                  But no one blackmailed J Edgar. You have to give the devil his due: the man had files on everyone, and little or no restraints on how he would operate.

                  Not that the Mob needed to blackmail him-he left them largely alone.

                  I will say this about JFK: in 1963, the Mob did not have the capability to pull off a major assassination, but if they needed JFK out of the way, they could easily have blackmailed him. Now, if Robert had died first, I would have looked for a Mob connection.

                  Nor do I think J. Edgar had anything to do with JFK's death, although I would not be surprised to learn that he hindered the investigation afterward.
                  Hoover had nothing to do with JFK's assassination. He helped cover it up though and had good reason too aswell. What do you think would have happened if the mob had gone after RFK in 63. Yeah doesn't take a stretch does it with his brother still in the White House. The JFK hit was to get his brother out of the justice department which was crippling them. Marcello had gotten desperate. Cut off the head not the tail of the dog as Marcello put it. Not that people like Hoffa didn't talk about it. They killed him in 68 instead. The congressional investigators in the late 70's really had great suspicion that Marcello hit JFK. The more contemporary evidence increases that suspicion. They had the highest motives of anyone and the means to do it. There is a lot of evidence to show it. Its up to you if you want to look at it and then make a decision based on that. But you're mind is set on what it is.

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                  • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                    Hoover had nothing to do with JFK's assassination. He helped cover it up though and had good reason too aswell. What do you think would have happened if the mob had gone after RFK in 63. Yeah doesn't take a stretch does it with his brother still in the White House. The JFK hit was to get his brother out of the justice department which was crippling them. Marcello had gotten desperate. Cut off the head not the tail of the dog as Marcello put it. Not that people like Hoffa didn't talk about it. They killed him in 68 instead. The congressional investigators in the late 70's really had great suspicion that Marcello hit JFK. The more contemporary evidence increases that suspicion. They had the highest motives of anyone and the means to do it. There is a lot of evidence to show it. Its up to you if you want to look at it and then make a decision based on that. But you're mind is set on what it is.
                    The facts are set as to what it is. Until RICO, the Mob had very little to fear from the Justice Department. Even the Teamster Pension fund scandal failed to scratch them, instead doing most of its damage to their Teamster cut-outs.

                    This is criminal history 101. They teach this in any OC ops course. Its history laid out in the countless court cases before & after RICO.

                    Again, cope, you need to learn how things work before you try and build a conspiracy out of them. There's zero evidence of anything-even if the Mob was threatened by Robert (which they weren't-the tools were years away) they had enough dirt on JFK to head off anything Robert might have done.

                    Without RICO and without any support from the FBI, Robert was effectively powerless. That's the big picture, and the proof.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      The facts are set as to what it is. Until RICO, the Mob had very little to fear from the Justice Department. Even the Teamster Pension fund scandal failed to scratch them, instead doing most of its damage to their Teamster cut-outs.

                      This is criminal history 101. They teach this in any OC ops course. Its history laid out in the countless court cases before & after RICO.

                      Again, cope, you need to learn how things work before you try and build a conspiracy out of them. There's zero evidence of anything-even if the Mob was threatened by Robert (which they weren't-the tools were years away) they had enough dirt on JFK to head off anything Robert might have done.

                      Without RICO and without any support from the FBI, Robert was effectively powerless. That's the big picture, and the proof.
                      Criminal history 101 is your term but you are incorrect. Bobby Kennedy's campaign against the Mafia was very intense. Giancana was under lock step surveillance and Trafficante was under heavy pressure. Marcello had already been deported once and their assets were coming under a very great squeeze. Hoffa was soon off to jail. Marcello was once again being under intense deportation pressure and was indeed in court about it the day JFK was shot sat next to one David Ferrie. You are incorrect I'm afraid. Your 101 needs to be re-assessed. RICO was very successful later of course but pre Dallas, the Justice department was all over them and they were very very worried.

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                      • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                        Criminal history 101 is your term but you are incorrect. Bobby Kennedy's campaign against the Mafia was very intense. Giancana was under lock step surveillance and Trafficante was under heavy pressure. Marcello had already been deported once and their assets were coming under a very great squeeze. Hoffa was soon off to jail. Marcello was once again being under intense deportation pressure and was indeed in court about it the day JFK was shot sat next to one David Ferrie. You are incorrect I'm afraid. Your 101 needs to be re-assessed. RICO was very successful later of course but pre Dallas, the Justice department was all over them and they were very very worried.

                        I realize being a Brit you don't understand how the US criminal system works, but what you're claiming is meaningless.

                        The pressure existed only in Hollywood-esque scenarios. Yeah, they deported one Old Turk, but that had no impact on the organization.

                        Hoffa wasn't even a Mob guy, BTW. He was a union man. In bed with the Mob, but that's it. His conviction certainly didn't affect the Mob access to the Teamsters.

                        Like I said, learn how the big picture works before you try and build a case off specific points. The Mob had zero motivation to take out JFK-they owned him. If Robert was really becoming a problem, they would have jerked the leash. JFK was up for re-election, and had some problems to overcome.
                        Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                        • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                          I realize being a Brit you don't understand how the US criminal system works, but what you're claiming is meaningless.

                          The pressure existed only in Hollywood-esque scenarios. Yeah, they deported one Old Turk, but that had no impact on the organization.

                          Hoffa wasn't even a Mob guy, BTW. He was a union man. In bed with the Mob, but that's it. His conviction certainly didn't affect the Mob access to the Teamsters.

                          Like I said, learn how the big picture works before you try and build a case off specific points. The Mob had zero motivation to take out JFK-they owned him. If Robert was really becoming a problem, they would have jerked the leash. JFK was up for re-election, and had some problems to overcome.
                          This is just inaccurate. Hoffa was just a union guy etc? Using the national card aswell. You're simply wrong and just not well read enough on this matter. It's as simple as that. I'm sure you'll try and belittle me as you've done before and that's OK. Believe what you will.

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                          • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                            This is just inaccurate. Hoffa was just a union guy etc? Using the national card aswell. You're simply wrong and just not well read enough on this matter. It's as simple as that. I'm sure you'll try and belittle me as you've done before and that's OK. Believe what you will.
                            I know the facts.

                            Like I said, cope: learn how the system works. Its the whole windshield debacle all over again: you won't test a simple thing like safety glass, but instead blindly accept what some hack said in a book he was peddling.

                            OC work is not a theory, its not a belief, its a body of statute and case law I've used many times (its not just for the Mob).

                            Solved the case yet, cope? Got the goods for an indictment? Or are you, like all the other conspiracy fanboys, just fumbling around telling each other that its obvious the world is flat because if it were round (actually oval) we would all fall off-it stands to reason, after all.

                            Don't just read books, cope, get out and experience a little of life. Fire an Italian rifle at a windshield (safely). Shoot a pig carcass. Learn a few things.

                            Recreate what you can re-create. A little hands-on will change your view of that event in ways you can't imagine. Thats how we do it in the real world, and trust me, it is an eye-opener.
                            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              I know the facts.

                              Like I said, cope: learn how the system works. Its the whole windshield debacle all over again: you won't test a simple thing like safety glass, but instead blindly accept what some hack said in a book he was peddling.

                              OC work is not a theory, its not a belief, its a body of statute and case law I've used many times (its not just for the Mob).

                              Solved the case yet, cope? Got the goods for an indictment? Or are you, like all the other conspiracy fanboys, just fumbling around telling each other that its obvious the world is flat because if it were round (actually oval) we would all fall off-it stands to reason, after all.

                              Don't just read books, cope, get out and experience a little of life. Fire an Italian rifle at a windshield (safely). Shoot a pig carcass. Learn a few things.

                              Recreate what you can re-create. A little hands-on will change your view of that event in ways you can't imagine. Thats how we do it in the real world, and trust me, it is an eye-opener.
                              Very predictable. The point is I have read and you haven't. If you did this without being a jerk I'd quite happily discuss this topic but alas you are so I'll leave it.
                              Last edited by copenhagen; 18 Aug 14, 13:42.

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                              • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                                Very predictable. The point is I have read and you haven't. If you did this without being a jerk I'd quite happily discuss this topic but alas you are so I'll leave it.
                                The point is I've actually conducted murder investigations, OC investigations, and reconstructed crime scenes, and you have not. And will not.

                                I've read actual history & case law, you read speculative fiction written for profit.

                                You're akin to a virgin trying to write porn, cope. Experience is actually a useful thing in many endeavors.
                                Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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