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  • I'm not sold on the Mafia solo act. I don't see them having the leverage or power, especially in all the different groups required to pull this off on their own.
    BoRG
    "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

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    • Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
      I'm not sold on the Mafia solo act. I don't see them having the leverage or power, especially in all the different groups required to pull this off on their own.
      They had the leverage. They really did. This is something that people really really don't understand. Carlos Marcello certainly did. He had the access, he had the people, he had the blackmailing opportunities, he had the ability to keep Hoover at bay and all the other law enforcement/ intelligence agencies and he was the one with the most overriding desperate motive. If you back up a number of posts you will see the developments on this. Hell even Congress back in the 70's thought they did it, they just couldn't prove it.
      PS they weren't solo in that they had people working for them in other organisations, from people who also worked for the CIA to Cuban exiles and Cuba is the issue that allowed all this to happen. Carlos Marcello was real Mafia ie he had access to the highest levels of power not people like John Gotti or even Al Capone. They were gangsters riding against the establishment. Marcello got right inside it. All the main people who were connected around the JFK assassination and Cuba , they lead to Carlos Marcello and also Santos Trafficante.
      Last edited by copenhagen; 04 Mar 14, 08:25.

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      • Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
        I'm not sold on the Mafia solo act. I don't see them having the leverage or power, especially in all the different groups required to pull this off on their own.
        Arthwys! I have no dog in this hunt and I don't have any Idea who was behind the killing of JFK, but the only thing I believe is that LHO was not the only shooter, I do not know how long you have been around, (in this world) but Cope has a point, the real Mafia, (not the gangsters as you know them) were very powerful, their tentacles reached in to the top levels of our government in the 50s and 60s and Carlos Marcello was a real Mafioso and I wouldn't put it past him if he had a reason.
        Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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        • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
          Arthwys! I have no dog in this hunt and I don't have any Idea who was behind the killing of JFK, but the only thing I believe is that LHO was not the only shooter, I do not know how long you have been around, (in this world) but Cope has a point, the real Mafia, (not the gangsters as you know them) were very powerful, their tentacles reached in to the top levels of our government in the 50s and 60s and Carlos Marcello was a real Mafioso and I wouldn't put it past him if he had a reason.
          His reason Bobby Kennedy. Kennedy had already deported him once and was trying to do so again. RFK's justice department guys were after them like a fly around poop. The brothers had been after them since the late 50's most notably Jimmy Hoffa and of the course the famous "I thought only little girls giggled Mr. Giancana." They had begun to shut down all manner of sources of money right across the US.We're talkign Billions here and I mean 60's Billions. For the first time ever Bobby had FBI surveilance crawling all over them. Ginancana was under lock step surveillance and Trafficante had trouble doing his business. The point is Marcello was getting desperate. His money was about to be seriously curtailed and and even his presecnce in the US was once again under serious threat. Lets not forget though Marcello's deportation had been an utter humiliation. It involved him being effectively kidnapped, chucked on a plane and then left in a jungle clearing in Venezuala in his suit and Gucci shoes. He had to walk out of there and became quite ill and nearly died. This is a Sicillian Mafioso we're talking about here. They dont take too kindly to that and not from some little arrogant rich kid. JFK was kiiled to get rid of his brother. And it was for revenge.

          This all whilst Marcello and Trafficante are being co-opted by the CIA to kill Fidel Castro. This gave them the access to people and resources that allowed the Mafia to blackmail the US authorities when the time came. The plots to kill Castro with and without Mafia help were highly top secret and mostly illegal. In addition it was something that if it went wrong could threaten World War 3. And that's what happened. The authorities were utterly desperate to keep communist involvment out of it so badly that they covered everything up. LHO is a lone nut, nothing else. To investigate further may lead to Communist involvement and the balloon goes up. Investigate the mafia and it leads to the killing of Castro and all the secret ops and the balloon goes up or at least a lot of very important people go to jail. In fact RFK himself pre Dallas had instigated a plan to cover up any links to them if Castro retaliated by killing a US diplomat or official in Central America or even Florida. He never dreamed that the official to die would be his brother. So the mechanisms to cover thing were already to go. Its Shakespearean.
          Last edited by copenhagen; 05 Mar 14, 04:52.

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          • Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
            JFK was kiiled to get rid of his brother. And it was for revenge.
            Probably the most important point in the whole saga. The moment Jackie wore her husband's brains was the same moment RFK lost all his power. He was a nobody the next day - and a nobody that had spent a couple of years treating LBJ as the red headed step child of the administration. It might not have saved the mafia from the RICO acts of the 80's and the general loss of political power the suffered, but it did save the big players of the era and gave them fifteen years of grace.
            Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

            That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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            • Originally posted by Rojik View Post
              Probably the most important point in the whole saga. The moment Jackie wore her husband's brains was the same moment RFK lost all his power. He was a nobody the next day - and a nobody that had spent a couple of years treating LBJ as the red headed step child of the administration. It might not have saved the mafia from the RICO acts of the 80's and the general loss of political power the suffered, but it did save the big players of the era and gave them fifteen years of grace.
              Its saved them till Hoover died really. Once Hoover died they now came under huge pressure. Up to this point Hoover had said organsed crime of serious note was a myth, Marcello is a tomato salesman, lets chase communsits instead. Hoover was also a serious gambler. Who controlled the gambling rackets. You guessed it.
              Last edited by copenhagen; 05 Mar 14, 05:05.

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              • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
                Arthwys! I have no dog in this hunt and I don't have any Idea who was behind the killing of JFK, but the only thing I believe is that LHO was not the only shooter, I do not know how long you have been around, (in this world) but Cope has a point, the real Mafia, (not the gangsters as you know them) were very powerful, their tentacles reached in to the top levels of our government in the 50s and 60s and Carlos Marcello was a real Mafioso and I wouldn't put it past him if he had a reason.
                Oh I'm aware of the power and influence of Marcello, Giancana, Trafficante &Co. I know that Marcello wanted (needed is more accurate) to revenge the insult of being deported to Guatemala. It was a saving Face and rebuilding his reputation/credibility before he got kicked to the curb by his associates thing, absolutely necessary in his world.

                My problem with them being the major players is I don't see them being able to play the Secret Service, CIA, Dallas PD and the FBI at the time and during the days leading up to the assassination, as well as being able to get LHO back from Russia, keep him out of federal prison, and get him set as the patsy as thoroughly as they did.
                BoRG
                "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
                  Oh I'm aware of the power and influence of Marcello, Giancana, Trafficante &Co. I know that Marcello wanted (needed is more accurate) to revenge the insult of being deported to Guatemala. It was a saving Face and rebuilding his reputation/credibility before he got kicked to the curb by his associates thing, absolutely necessary in his world.

                  My problem with them being the major players is I don't see them being able to play the Secret Service, CIA, Dallas PD and the FBI at the time and during the days leading up to the assassination, as well as being able to get LHO back from Russia, keep him out of federal prison, and get him set as the patsy as thoroughly as they did.
                  The Mafia had nothing to do with LHO in Russia. LHO was an agent of the CIA or ONI and his uncle/ childhood guardian was also a bookie for Marcello and had been for years. They played the CIA due to their mutual involvement with killing Castro. The mob had numerous operatives who were contract agents with the CIA. The Dallas PD were largely owned by the mob. Dallas was Marcellos territory and the point of the Mafia was to buy people in government and law enforcement. You have to remember, they did the hit, they didn't do the cover up that was the government and why they did it is actually quite logical when you look at the intertwining circumstances of all the agencies surrounding the case and the plot to kill Castro. This is what the Mafia was counting on. The Mob , the CIA , the Dallas PD, the FBI. They all crossed each other in one way or another. All the main figures in the case lead to Marcello. I know it seems difficult to believe but go to Brothers by David Talbot, and all 3 Kennedy books by Lemar Waldron, someone would have talked by Larry Hancock. If you don't think wow, then fair enough but I bet you do...
                  Last edited by copenhagen; 05 Mar 14, 14:11.

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                  • I always assumed all these years it was Castro who got it done, because that's what the U.S. News and World Report said at the the time, and it does make perfect sense, after all those exploding cigars and poisoned wet suits JFK aimed at Castro, for heaven's sake. It was enough to annoy anyone.

                    But last night, probably because of this Ukraine crisis, I awoke from a sound sleep and thought, I bet the Russians had JFK assassinated! It makes just as much sense as Castro, because of their resentment at the Cuban Missile Crisis. And LHO did spend a lot of time in Russia and then came back.

                    I'm surprised I never thought of that before.

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                    • Originally posted by Phebe View Post
                      I always assumed all these years it was Castro who got it done, because that's what the U.S. News and World Report said at the the time, and it does make perfect sense, after all those exploding cigars and poisoned wet suits JFK aimed at Castro, for heaven's sake. It was enough to annoy anyone.

                      But last night, probably because of this Ukraine crisis, I awoke from a sound sleep and thought, I bet the Russians had JFK assassinated! It makes just as much sense as Castro, because of their resentment at the Cuban Missile Crisis. And LHO did spend a lot of time in Russia and then came back.

                      I'm surprised I never thought of that before.
                      No I don't think so, the Russians got pretty much of what they wanted out of the Cuban Missile deal, we removed our Missiles from Turkey!
                      Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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                      • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
                        No I don't think so, the Russians got pretty much of what they wanted out of the Cuban Missile deal, we removed our Missiles from Turkey!
                        True.

                        Still, they were probably annoyed at being blocked from emplacing nuclear missiles aimed at American cities so close to our borders.

                        They weren't expecting JFK to take the world to the edge of nuclear holocaust to stop their Cold War advance. They must have considered him a loose cannon, a problem.

                        I think they took him out.

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                        • Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
                          No I don't think so, the Russians got pretty much of what they wanted out of the Cuban Missile deal, we removed our Missiles from Turkey!
                          Yes... but no. The Western PR machine killed them. The Turkish deal wasn't reported in anything but by-lines, and that and the failed agriculture deal in Kazakhstan destroyed Khrushchev politically. And that brought in Brezhnev. He may have held things together but the message was clear that good leaders need to play it safe. And that killed the SU later down the track.

                          So it was a tactical win but a strategic loss. And it looked like a loss of face to the SU's allies. The US deserves applause for the way it wrote the history on that one.
                          Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                          That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Phebe View Post
                            True.

                            Still, they were probably annoyed at being blocked from emplacing nuclear missiles aimed at American cities so close to our borders.

                            They weren't expecting JFK to take the world to the edge of nuclear holocaust to stop their Cold War advance. They must have considered him a loose cannon, a problem.

                            I think they took him out.
                            Nah. They had their own problems. And taking out someone like him would only make more of them. Anyway they weren't up against a man. They were up against a system, just like the Soviets were against the West. One man gone would change very little and risk much.
                            Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                            That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                              Nah. They had their own problems. And taking out someone like him would only make more of them. Anyway they weren't up against a man. They were up against a system, just like the Soviets were against the West. One man gone would change very little and risk much.
                              This is why I apparently do believe in the Great Man Theory of History.

                              Because I think they WERE up against a man, a man and his brother, at least: Obama wouldn't have done it. Carter would not have done it. Lyndon? Hard to say: there's a loose cannon for sure.

                              They expected the system to let them get away with Cuba, but JFK didn't let them.

                              It still could be Castro. But as of now I bet it was the Soviet Union. I guess I have been forcibly reminded of their disillusionment, their cruelty and general corruption by this crisis.

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                              • Originally posted by Phebe View Post
                                This is why I apparently do believe in the Great Man Theory of History.

                                Because I think they WERE up against a man, a man and his brother, at least: Obama wouldn't have done it. Carter would not have done it. Lyndon? Hard to say: there's a loose cannon for sure.

                                They expected the system to let them get away with Cuba, but JFK didn't let them.
                                No US president would have let them. Ever. He might have the final say but when everyone from the press to the pentagon, and every advisor and PR man is telling you that letting this happen is akin to letting the SU spit in your face he'll agree and make the call to stop it.
                                Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                                That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                                Comment

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