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  • North American Union.

    US Canada Mexico on EU type basis.
    50 years away? 150 years away? Never?
    What would be the causes? Mexico decending into Anarchy? The US has a plan to take sections of the Mexican border if it does decay into a drug war with no real government. What if the instability reaches a point where the Yucatan breaks off?

    I can not see the US letting a Dictator drug dealer perform a coup.

    Canada, is more or less intigrated into the US economy, would Quebec breaking off spur a breakup of Canada and incorperation into a North American union?

    Would it be piecemeal? Or whole hog?

    Would politicians decide that open borders and common trade laws would be enough for a union, or would currency and military be considered?

    While I think Mexico would need to be a pivotal event to form a union with, I think Canada and the US are going to merge on an open border state in the near future. There is no reason that the US considered goods and Pharma from Canada as imports, or requires stop and search on the border.

    US/Canada could very much benefit from a EU style border.

    So the question remains, how soon does it happen and how much in united? Why could it happen and how much territory would it consist of. (Canada, Mexico, Cuba, No Quebec? Just Northern Mexico? Just Baja?)

  • #2
    Originally posted by niikeb View Post
    US Canada Mexico on EU type basis.
    50 years away? 150 years away? Never?
    What would be the causes? Mexico decending into Anarchy? The US has a plan to take sections of the Mexican border if it does decay into a drug war with no real government. What if the instability reaches a point where the Yucatan breaks off?

    I can not see the US letting a Dictator drug dealer perform a coup.

    Canada, is more or less intigrated into the US economy, would Quebec breaking off spur a breakup of Canada and incorperation into a North American union?

    Would it be piecemeal? Or whole hog?

    Would politicians decide that open borders and common trade laws would be enough for a union, or would currency and military be considered?

    While I think Mexico would need to be a pivotal event to form a union with, I think Canada and the US are going to merge on an open border state in the near future. There is no reason that the US considered goods and Pharma from Canada as imports, or requires stop and search on the border.

    US/Canada could very much benefit from a EU style border.

    So the question remains, how soon does it happen and how much in united? Why could it happen and how much territory would it consist of. (Canada, Mexico, Cuba, No Quebec? Just Northern Mexico? Just Baja?)

    A customs union seems to me in the realm of possiblity. Right now our two governments are working towards a "Beyond the Border - A shared Perimiter Security vision". The idea that United States would accept an EU type arrangement on joint matters doesn't seem plausable, and I don't think that would be popular here also.

    So far as a union between Canada and the United States, I don't think it is in the cards, Quebec separation or not.

    We respect the United States, but we are very proud of our own history and our very separate development as a nation.
    Last edited by Sparlingo; 07 Jun 12, 23:02.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
      A customs union seems to me in the realm of possiblity. Right now our two governments are working towards a "Beyond the Border - A shared Perimiter Security vision". The idea that United States would accept an EU type arrangement on joint matters doesn't seem plausable, and I don't think that would be popular here also.

      So far as a union between Canada and the United States, I don't think it is in the cards, Quebec separation or not.

      We respect the United States, but we are very proud of our own history and our very separate development as a nation.
      Well an EU style open border is different than say a North American Parliment. Also the place we are at now may not be the place we are in 100 years. 100 years ago, no one could imagine France and Germany being in a union.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by niikeb View Post
        Well an EU style open border is different than say a North American Parliment. Also the place we are at now may not be the place we are in 100 years. 100 years ago, no one could imagine France and Germany being in a union.
        In 1783 Article 11 of the Articles of Confederation stated:

        Article 11

        Summary—Canada

        If Canada chooses to declare its independence and agrees to the terms of the Articles of Confederation, it can join the union and become a fully sovereign state like the other thirteen states. This offer does not include any other colony but Canada, unless nine states agree to extend this offer to another colony.

        As Article 11 has never been appealed, the offer is still open but has never been taken up for 229 years now. Maybe in the next 100 years

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
          In 1783 Article 11 of the Articles of Confederation stated:

          Article 11

          Summary—Canada

          If Canada chooses to declare its independence and agrees to the terms of the Articles of Confederation, it can join the union and become a fully sovereign state like the other thirteen states. This offer does not include any other colony but Canada, unless nine states agree to extend this offer to another colony.

          As Article 11 has never been appealed, the offer is still open but has never been taken up for 229 years now. Maybe in the next 100 years
          Articles of Confederation are no longer in service, they have been superceeded by the Constitution since March 4th 1789.
          It does bring up an interesting legal point if Canada could appeal on the basis that Article 11 is not referenced in the constitution and that although there in no continuation clause, the lack of reference means the invitation is still open.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by niikeb View Post
            Articles of Confederation are no longer in service, they have been superceeded by the Constitution since March 4th 1789.
            It does bring up an interesting legal point if Canada could appeal on the basis that Article 11 is not referenced in the constitution and that although there in no continuation clause, the lack of reference means the invitation is still open.
            Interesting. I researched it a bit and here is what one website said on the matter:

            "As for Article Eleven, it is not itself legally binding for America today. There is however constitutional weight in the historical significance of the Articles of Confederation document, because they were used as legally valid documents to justify the perpetual nature of the Union. In this sense it could be effectively argued that this offer is still valid, considering it's explicit formulation. I personally believe that Americans should be consulted directly via a plebiscite, because adding Canada's provinces as states is such a big and permanently Union altering decision. Nevertheless Article Eleven is relevant and should be given consideration by congress if ever a Canadian province or Canada as whole signals a desire for such a combined union of our federations!"

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            • #7
              The was also an annexation bill in congress in 1866 explicitly offering the defined then 5 provinces of canada (then colonies) admission into the Union. It, however, never made it out of commitee, and was never voted on.

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              • #8
                I could see a US-Canadian union happening, if only there wasn't the whole issue with Quebec.

                Now a US-Mexican union I could not see happening anytime soon. Security and (illegal) immigration issues currently make it anything but a pipe dream. Changing demographic might change the situation though.
                ´
                “You need to help people. I know it's not very Republican to say but you need to help people.” DONALD TRUMP, 2016

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                • #9
                  I doubt it would happen, ever, thought no one has a 100 year crystal ball. In fact I don't think we can say the EU has stood the test of time, it's success is not certain IMHO. NAFTA has proved to be something of a failure, and if an economic sort of agreement like that doesn't work I doubt anything more substantial has a chance. Besides, Canada and the US are pretty good neighbors, why mess with what's working? Mexico? That's a quagmire we'd never get out of, so I hope we never get into it more than we already are.

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                  • #10
                    Seems like Canada and the US are already one nation in many many ways. We have a common border that means next to nothing for the intercourse between our peoples. Our cultures are more the same than any other two country's. Sports and sport stars are shared. In our spoken language there is very little difference, unless you come from the Deep South or Texas. Cross border trade use to flow freely and many company's set up on both sides of the border. We might be different bu we sure are very much alike.
                    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                    • #11
                      More like same state... perhaps? but same nation? How do Canadians feel about being American? or vice versa? a Nation is a tricky thing to define for that.
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                      'I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.' - Thomas Jefferson

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Selous View Post
                        More like same state... perhaps? but same nation? How do Canadians feel about being American? or vice versa? a Nation is a tricky thing to define for that.
                        It's not just how they feel but how we act. Ask people on either side of the border and most we'll say they love their country. Ask the same people what is the difference between the two and you might get a lot of puzzled looks.
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                        • #13
                          I don't doubt it, a good friend of mine at university was a Canadian and, well, to me, came across as very American. He liked British sports a lot though. I'm sure he didn't dislike the US, but was quite proud Canada. I think this sets a lot in Nationhood. Just seeing this from my POV, so I don't want to stick my oar in really, but I see it through a prism wherin we have in these isles, say, the Welsh who in their day to day activity are perhaps as similar to English as Americans to Canadians(?) but with a different accent. Same language (Well...most of the time, maybe Scotland was a better example), same two major sports, and so on, but both Welsh and Scottish Nations see themselves as quite different, which I can see, and desire a different state. Canada, in my opinion is also distinct from the US in the same way Wales, and Scotland, say are with England, but with the additional that they've been politically and institutionally seperate since almost their beginnings as modern states, unlike the examples within these islands.
                          ------
                          'I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.' - Thomas Jefferson

                          If you have questions about the forum please check the FAQ/Rules

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Selous View Post
                            I don't doubt it, a good friend of mine at university was a Canadian and, well, to me, came across as very American. He liked British sports a lot though. I'm sure he didn't dislike the US, but was quite proud Canada. I think this sets a lot in Nationhood. Just seeing this from my POV, so I don't want to stick my oar in really, but I see it through a prism wherin we have in these isles, say, the Welsh who in their day to day activity are perhaps as similar to English as Americans to Canadians(?) but with a different accent. Same language (Well...most of the time, maybe Scotland was a better example), same two major sports, and so on, but both Welsh and Scottish Nations see themselves as quite different, which I can see, and desire a different state. Canada, in my opinion is also distinct from the US in the same way Wales, and Scotland, say are with England, but with the additional that they've been politically and institutionally seperate since almost their beginnings as modern states, unlike the examples within these islands.
                            Well I think there is also a lot more space between the US and Canada than England and Scotland.

                            If Scotland devolves from the UK, it will still be more united with the UK (EU/Commonwealth) than the US and Canada are now.

                            Aka, If the US and Canada agreed to an open border trade union, and Scotland devolved from the UK, Scotland would still be more a part of the UK than the US and Canada would be a part of each other.

                            So if the US and Canada become closer, and England and Scotland get further apart, it is still several steps until the 2 relationships are similar.

                            Bleh I think I totally botched that.

                            I do think the world is headed into larger yet smaller communities. Large interest groups of allies made up of smaller and smaller nations.

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                            • #15
                              I don't think you botched it, your post makes sense to me. I can see what you mean about ever-smaller countries, seems to have been a trend of late to splinter off
                              ------
                              'I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.' - Thomas Jefferson

                              If you have questions about the forum please check the FAQ/Rules

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