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Obama neutral on Maldives or should that be Malvinas??

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparlingo View Post
    TTurkey would be entitled to envoke Article 5
    Reread the charter. It says and attack in Europe or North America. The Asian part of Turkey does not meet that criteria. Or do you want to move Asia into being a part of Europe?
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    youre entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

    Comment


    • #32
      Gooner and Chris, the Union Jack came down on Hong Kong not too long ago. The Malvinas, as they are called in Puerto Rico, are obviously going to take longer. The Argies are keeping their claim alive. To do anything more than that would be counterproductive to their own interests. Not that it couldn't happen, Hell, Britain could vote for Sharia law tomorrow, but another Malvinas war by Argentina is highly unlikely. Unlike the military dictatorship, civilian Argentine governments can be brought down by the electorate.
      dit: Lirelou

      Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

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      • #33
        Lirelou

        The day that Argentina obtains a 51% vote from the Islanders for unification of the Islands with Argentina, they have won - simple as that.

        Early in the conflict it was suggested that Argentina offer each Islander 1million to vote for such an outcome - might have been more sensible than attacking them.

        Democracy is a bit of novelty for Argentina but lets hope it continues.

        Very interesting info about the NATO Treaty - separate question but does it need updating? So how did we justify NATO action in Libya or Afghanistan?

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        • #34
          the Union Jack came down on Hong Kong not too long ago
          Well there was a treaty and the Chinese were perfectly within their rights to ask for the Island back in 1997 which they did. Whatever you might think of the Communists, they acted legally.

          There is no similar treaty with Argentina and an unprovoked, undeclared attack on any sovereign nation is pretty illegal in any book.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by lirelou View Post
            Dibble, I never asked what they thought of the British, as they had obviously lost. And the next conversation i had with my old friend was about the Carapintadas revolt, which he put down and was suffering the silent treatment for doing so.
            Such a balanced conversation

            As for the Argies, the Brits i spoke too unanimously described the Argentine Army as badly clothed, poorly fed, and demoralized. The Marines, on the other hand, were described as tough and full of fight. One British sniper opined that the Argies Marines used their snipers better than the British.
            The Argie Marines were full of fight, they are still not a patch on the Paras or any other British regiment.

            As for sniping, The British were advancing, the Argies were on the defensive and held the high ground what would you expect? anyway 'he said, she said' is no proof of anything. If you think that the British army sniper schools were training inferior specialists, you should post your reasons for such thoughts here.

            I assume you are aware that the first Argentine commando action in the Falklands / Malvinas was led ashore by an Argentine captain named Juan Gough, whose native English accent was learned at home.
            And?

            Personally, I rather doubt that Argentina will resort to armed force in the Malvinas. Time is on their side, and treating the issue as best left to eventual negotiation and common sense stands a far better chance of succeeding
            .

            Don't want them getting their collective arses kicked again and yet more dead because of another illeagal invasion now do we!

            Sooner or later, the exchequer is bound to question the monies being spent to fly the Union Jack over the Malvinas.
            will he? He may well do, just like the ever powerful Labour goverment thought that it would be a vote winner to give up Gibraltar

            Anyway, when all those Welsh and Spaniards decide to leave their colonial outpost, the Falklanders will surely enjoy their new lives in the villages around Dartmoor.

            Paul
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Scupio View Post
              Well there was a treaty and the Chinese were perfectly within their rights to ask for the Island back in 1997 which they did. Whatever you might think of the Communists, they acted legally.

              There is no similar treaty with Argentina and an unprovoked, undeclared attack on any sovereign nation is pretty illegal in any book.
              Actually the people of Hong Kong were never consulted as to what THEY wanted. Screw the treaty, the people of Hong Kong should have been allowed to choose between British rule, Chinese rule, or independence from both.

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              • #37
                Screw the treaty, the people of Hong Kong should have been allowed to choose between British rule, Chinese rule, or independence from both.
                Reply With Quote
                Agreed - I was allways embarrassed that the "Colony" never enjoyed complete democracy and the ill advised, last minute efforts by Governor Patton were a joke.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Scupio View Post
                  Agreed - I was allways embarrassed that the "Colony" never enjoyed complete democracy and the ill advised, last minute efforts by Governor Patton were a joke.
                  Wasn't it determined without the leased territories the colony was not viable?

                  Not withstanding the Rio Treaty I do not consider Argentina to be an ally of the USA

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                  • #39
                    Hongkong is split into at least three parts Hong Kong Island, given out right to the UK, by the Chinese. Kowloon, part of the mainland leased to the UK, lease expiring in 1997. The New Territories also on a lease.

                    The bulk of the population and industry was on Kowloon. The bulk of the food came from the new territories.

                    Once the lease ran out there was no way of holding HongKong. Unless we started selling opium again.

                    The Falklands is entirely different being unoccupied at the time of discovery and capable of being supported from the UK if needed and with a population without divided loyalties, they want to remain British. End of story.
                    "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

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                    • #40
                      End of story merely means that for the present, the Malvinas will remain British., as the Islanders wish. During the French and Indian War, the overwhelming majority of American colonists wished to remain English. That changed. I hardly see the population of the Malvinas coming around in the next twenty years, but again, time is on Argentina's side. Sooner or later, the Malvinas will be Argentine. All the chest-thumping in the world will not change that. Likewise, I would not be surprised to see Britain some day give up Gibraltar.

                      As for this:
                      The Argie Marines were full of fight, they are still not a patch on the Paras or any other British regiment
                      And which one of those regiments do you belong to? Pride on one's regiment is one thing, but it should not lead to underestimating an opponent. You can bet that all professional Argentine officers have studied the lessons to be learned.
                      dit: Lirelou

                      Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                        End of story merely means that for the present, the Malvinas will remain British., as the Islanders wish. During the French and Indian War, the overwhelming majority of American colonists wished to remain English. That changed. I hardly see the population of the Malvinas coming around in the next twenty years, but again, time is on Argentina's side. Sooner or later, the Malvinas will be Argentine. All the chest-thumping in the world will not change that. Likewise, I would not be surprised to see Britain some day give up Gibraltar.

                        As for this: And which one of those regiments do you belong to? Pride on one's regiment is one thing, but it should not lead to underestimating an opponent. You can bet that all professional Argentine officers have studied the lessons to be learned.
                        Reality and fact is not underestimating. As for the Argie Ruperts; they CAN learn all they like, they will still be wanting.

                        What's the matter, Got a chip on the shoulder have we! Of course, bringing the British army and especially the Paras into an argument with an off-shore Irishman is never going to be a 'good un' is it?

                        Paul (an off-shore Dutchman)
                        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                        All human ills he can subdue,
                        Or with a bauble or medal
                        Can win mans heart for you;
                        And many a blessing know to stew
                        To make a megloamaniac bright;
                        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                        The Pixie is a little shite.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                          End of story merely means that for the present, the Malvinas will remain British., as the Islanders wish. During the French and Indian War, the overwhelming majority of American colonists wished to remain English. That changed. I hardly see the population of the Malvinas coming around in the next twenty years, but again, time is on Argentina's side. Sooner or later, the Malvinas will be Argentine. All the chest-thumping in the world will not change that. Likewise, I would not be surprised to see Britain some day give up gibraltar d.
                          .

                          The thing is there is nothing absolute about it. Take it from me it would be a daft thing for Argentines to try to hold their breath while they are waiting.

                          As for gib, well we will probably start thinking about it the day after Spain hands back Ceuta. The answer is still likely to be no the same as the Falklands. The people don't want it and while they havent been of strategic use since world war two it doesn't mean it will stay that way.
                          "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lirelou View Post
                            Personally, I rather doubt that Argentina will resort to armed force in the Malvinas. Time is on their side, and treating the issue as best left to eventual negotiation and common sense stands a far better chance of succeeding.

                            Sooner or later, the exchequer is bound to question the monies being spent to fly the Union Jack over the Malvinas.
                            Argentina had the opportunity to resolve this quite a long time ago and instead chose to **** off the Brits; that was before the discovery of oil deposits in the waters adjacent to the Falklands. Now we have those oil deposits thrown into the mix and I really doubt that Britain will give up on all the monies that oil represents just to be nice to Argentina, especially after the Argentinian leadership chose to be unreasonable to begin with and decided to play the victim of non-existent British imperialism.

                            Maybe after all the oil runs out, fifty or sixty years from now at the earliest, the Brits may be willing to discuss the matter again but I doubt it. The islanders are certainly not going to want to discuss the matter. Under British rule every man, woman and child on those islands will probably become quite wealthy. Under Argentinian rule the money will go to Buenos Aires where it will be wasted like all the rest of the money in that country.
                            Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                            Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                            Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DARKPLACE View Post
                              .
                              As for gib, well we will probably start thinking about it the day after Spain hands back Ceuta.
                              Like that will ever happen. The Spanish view Ceuta and Melilla as direct integral parts of the Spanish Kingdom. A 2007 poll by Angus Reid found that 90% of the residents of the 2 cities see themselves as Spanish and not Moroccan, additionally most are of Spanish descent.

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                              • #45
                                Dibble, I've probably seen the British Army up much closer and personal than you have, and hold them in high respect. But I've also served with Argie officers and seen their training up close. The real point here is that presumptions are the mother of all foul-ups, and you presumed wrongly. I'm not an off-shore Irishman, My second language is Spanish, which I speak, read, and write as well as English, and I'm as American as Juan Gough is Argentine. This thread is not about which Army is better. It is about the Malvinas and the likelihood that they will remain British over the long term.

                                Chris, very good point on the Spanish and Ceuta and Melilla, by the way. I'm sure they would gladly give up both if it meant getting Gibraltar back, but Morocco's not pressing any claims on the Rock and Spain is more European minded than our Latin relatives on this side of the Pond.
                                Last edited by lirelou; 05 May 12, 15:37.
                                dit: Lirelou

                                Phong trần mi một lưỡi gươm, Những loi gi o ti cơm s g!

                                Comment

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